Yes I imagine front- and splinter- parties would begin to proliferate as soon as the intent to ban was announced, and would be created faster than they could be litigated away?
What is the consensus among those in Germany who follow such things as you do? Would a ban kill off opposition, perhaps just fizzling out through demoralization? Or would such a blatant move enrage the population enough to finally rid them of the lunatics killing off your country?
Do enough Germans have the backbone to recognize their country is being dismantled and destroyed and it will require real strength to stop?
I disagree. I think they are a wasted vote. Not voting would accomplish more. They are pure Establishment in my view, with a few superficial nods to nationalism.
I still do not understand why AfD is labelled extremist ? I suppose it is for their stated policies destined to make Germany prosperous and peace loving again.
Because the enemy of globalism is nationalism. Any hint of that is a threat.
Globalism must be taught; nationalism, patriotism and national loyalty tend to emerge naturally among people with a common heritage. Hence mass immigration; this inevitably destroys nations. That's why the North African nations expel subsaharans. They are too different despite all being African.
Everyone knows this. Everyone feels differences like that. It must be educated out of you. And once it is it feels like a superior understanding of life rather than globalist brainwashing.
it sounds like there are quite a lot of AfD voters - but there are also lots of people left who support the old parties. It sounds like it might end in a civil war ! Or may be most are so fed up with politics no one would lift a finger? For many years my family objected to voting for volksunie. Then some 25 years ago they changed their name, and now the prime minister is former volksunie. I jokingly called him the gestapo leader when he marched to the Antwerp city hall years ago when he was voted mayor.
Civil war is a very unlikely scenario. I can't think of many who would want to fight it. Luckily, there is very little appetite for violence. Especially in the East, fear of war is even a driver for growing AfD support, albeit not the major one. Generally, AfD voters want more order not less. This is another reason why the whole narrative of AfD being a threat to the constitution or some sort of resurrected NSDAP is absurd. The more likely scenario is that new parties would emerge that would take AfD's place. BSW could soak up a few % but they are too leftist for most AfD voters, so a new right-wing party would emerge.
Beyond being leftist, there is virtually no historical connection between the West German KPD and modern-day Linke and BSW though.
In the East, the Soviets unified KPD and SPD in 1946, creating the SED that ruled until 1990. In the West, KPD's connections to the SED, and ultimately to Moscow, were the major reason for why they were banned in 1956. After the reunification, the SED didn't cease to exist, but transformed into a democratic socialist party, the PDS, which was only strong in the East. It wasn't until 2007 that they united with WASG, a newly founded party of disappointed left-wing SPD members mainly from the West, to form the Linke of today.
So the Linke, which was only founded 50 years later, is only loosely connected to the historic KPD, although there's certainly some degree of ideological continuity. Shortly after the KPD ban, the DKP was founded in West Germany, followed by other communist splinter parties. The DKP exists to this day and is the most immediate successor to the West German KPD, but it never reached any real significance. However, the KPD had already been in decline for years at the time of the ban, and never got close its importance in the Weimar era. There is no precedence to banning the most popular (or really any widely popular) political party in Germany.
my parents would say the members were with the Germans during the war. I never paid much attention to politics while in Belgium, as the parties between themselves chose who is going to be minister of what. Did not matter who you voted for, I think the system is probably comparable to Germany.
It's not without historical precedent. In the US, the Socialist Party never came to power... but over the years, its entire platform was assimilated by the Democrats.
In the wider picture, the AfD must be suppressed so that Germany can give €500B of its own weapons and (borrowed) money to Ukraine, because Russia Man Bad.
Nobody, certainly not German voters, can be allowed to object to German voters bankrolling the glorious War of NATO Aggression.
It must be a disturbing hellscape they live in to operate like this. A form of mental illness shared by the local leaders and much of the laptop class. Do they really think it will end well?
'...declares “unconstitutional” those “parties that, by reason of their aims or the behaviour of their adherents, seek to undermine or abolish the free democratic basic order or to endanger the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany.”'
I fail to see how how all the criteria you describe in this paragraph do not apply to the non-AfD parties in German politics. Their actions are certainly belligerently anti-democratic, after all.
I'd guess from everything you've written to date that easterly Germans are far more clear-eyed about all things real than their westerly not-exactly compatriots.
All of us who found our varied ways to the Plague Era plane of reality have been more than willing to endure bad names thrown at us even by those we love and in most things may continue to regard as intelligent and thoughtful. We've been willing to endure their disappointment or horror at our choices and our convictions. Many of us in the US see Trump not as Orange Jesus but as Orange Not Jesus but the instrument we need, each of us for our own purposes. And our support grew or was birthed in the lawfare against him.
So perhaps it will be necessary over by you as it was over here by us--let 'em have at it. And let 'em see what happens.
It would be courting disaster to ban a party that is preferred by at least 25% of the voters. That would basically be a civil war, and Germany would become ungovernable. If the union parties do not compromise, they will lose all legitimacy. It's that simple.
It appears Germany is implementing a New Morgenthau Plan on themselves.
To an outsider it seems like Germany is doing to itself almost everything Morgenthau once dreamed of. I don't think that's an overstatement. Germany has been willfully pastoralizing, disarming, deindustrializing—and destroying—itself
They've done more harm to themselves than the allies could've ever done after WW2. I guess it wasn't good enough that the "conquerors" rejected making the same mistake they did after WW1 by deciding that wrecking Germany was too harsh...so the German establishment decided to do it to themselves...slowly, over 80 years...and then all at once starting with the Merkel regime.
And they've decided to put fuel on the fire by allowing 1 million immigrants to enter the country illegally, the vast majority of them from the Middle East. Clearly these cultures are hostile to European values and society. It's pretty hard to keep a proud culture when One-fifth of the population was not born in Germany. Couple that with one of the lowest first world fertility rates and it becomes obvious what the end result will be.
But that wasn't enough, so they've diminished the Ruhr, by chasing a foolish "green-scam" to the point it can no longer save the German economy from its own utopian policies.
Basically they're trying to recreate a Germania that Tacitus described 2,000 years ago; something akin to an ancient, pre-civilized frontier.
Its all an exercise in demoralization. That's the point imo. An apathetic society is easy to control.
AfD is a direct threat to their power because it may wake the people up from a long slumber in apathy.
The AfD is a threat because it provides a focus for the masculine drive to protect one's homeland, and that will not do in a modern feminized European state. Even the hint of nationalism is verboten.
But the more they suppress it the more explosive the pushback will ultimately be. We all know what they are capable of when their blood's up.
I mean, I'd previously thought that the theory that the combined World Wars killed off enough of the "boldest" men that it had a significant impact on the makeup of society in general was over the top, but we're getting to the point where these countries (and my beloved USA is certainly no particular exception) are emasculating and deindustrializing *themselves*. It's started to make me wonder if there's something to the thesis.
The French self flagellation typically revolves around a combination of colonialism and Vichy "collaboration"; it too often leads to some impulse to see themselves snuffed out.
The people whose articles *I* read from Jolly Olde certainly are, but LabTor seems to still be garnering quite a few votes from the rest of the island. Much like here, where there is still a significant percentage of the populace voting D. :-/ And, of course, the premise of this whole article is that while AfD is doing quite well, historically speaking, 74% of the population prefers the status quo, evidently.
Observing from a distance here in the US, I can only repeat the common refrain: How will the German people respond to the obviously insane idea to ban the most popular party in the country?
People only read the headlines. For many the accusation is enough. Look at liberal women in America who think Trump is going to enslave all women and genocide blacks. They are deranged.
My fave was the headlines years ago in the UK that by 2010 British kids would never see snow. They aren't even embarrassed because the media serve globalists and understand the public has no memory.
I get an an overall positive vibe from what you write today. That's somewhat encouraging. Hopefully before long that silly firewall will evaporate as well.
I think it is closer to this: they think up pleasant things inside their head, utopian schemes, and compare it to real life. Real life does not meet their utopian standard and they become enraged. All this feels good and wins points from other idiots when they announce they are working to eradicate poverty or equalize the sexes.
Three days of hunger would kill off the pronouns; seven to ensure the sexual deviants recalibrate their lives to something more meaningful. It happens that quick, especially with men as starvation increases testosterone.
A full month of foraging for food in a complex Western society with scarce resources would literally reset everything.
They're a diffuse international tyrannical oligarchy that wants an all-powerful state. Some of their actions overlap with communism, some with fascism, but the ideology that drives them is fundamentally different from both.
They are not collectivists, but individualists. They think individuals should be "freed" of every unchosen constraint, whether nationality, religion, family ties or biological sex. All the "bitter clingers" (Obama's term) to those unchosen constraints are considered "far right" and their speech is progressively criminalized, their political leaders arrested and political parties banned. While we think their concept of individualism is perverse, that doesn't turn them into collectivists.
One thing about which I’m unclear: the grounds for banning a party seem to be primarily (solely?) if that party seeks to overthrow the constitutional order - implementing some non-democratic method of choosing the government, etc.
Has the AfD proposed that in some way? I was under the impression their basic platform was “we’ll be elected and then do right wing stuff, but keep having elections, etc”. Is that mistaken? If not, on what legal grounds would the party be banned?
the theory is that they have a secretive anti-democratic agenda hiding beneath their democratic surface. that’s why the BfV surveillance is so crucial - they will try to demonstrate AfV ‘true intentions’, which of course will be total bollocks but that hardly matters. it is a massive mainstream conspiracy theory, basically.
How thoroughly weird Germany has become ... worst fears seem capable of being realized ... Very disappointing to view from the partial liberation of U.S. politics ... Germans seem caught. Maybe the UK is no better ... And the EU is a strait jacket hindering European nations from freeing themselves from the betrayal by their political class ... False gods still worshiped, the moldy corpse, an ideology of open and border-less society poisoning everything ...
I am sure the current UK government wants to go the same. I do not think we know all the terms IC the Treaty agreed when TTK visited Germany - was it to coincidentally to enact such authoritarian measures
They can ban the AfD, but the sentiments of the people who support the party will remain -- won't the AfD just be reborn in a new guise?
an AfAfD
Yes I imagine front- and splinter- parties would begin to proliferate as soon as the intent to ban was announced, and would be created faster than they could be litigated away?
People will become AFD AF.
I think they should simply rebrand as "Antifaschistische Deutschland". Or, "AfD", for short... 🤣
Man, and I thought the US Democrats held the record for the stupidest people of the year award
Banning AfD will spawn a powerful underground movement. The gatekeepers of 'democracy' are playing with fire.
I think we can rely on the fact that the morons running Germany are too incompetent to actually pull this off.
What is the consensus among those in Germany who follow such things as you do? Would a ban kill off opposition, perhaps just fizzling out through demoralization? Or would such a blatant move enrage the population enough to finally rid them of the lunatics killing off your country?
Do enough Germans have the backbone to recognize their country is being dismantled and destroyed and it will require real strength to stop?
nobody really knows what will happen on the other side of a ban. they don't know either.
Interesting times ahead then for Germany. At least you have an AfD. Britain doesn't.
Reform Party is polling almost exactly the same as AfD. I’m sure if ban proceedings are started against the AfD, Starmer will be quick to follow suit.
They are strictly containment and pose absolutely no threat to anyone.
I’m aware of that view and see your point but if nothing else they are a damn good repository for a protest vote.
I disagree. I think they are a wasted vote. Not voting would accomplish more. They are pure Establishment in my view, with a few superficial nods to nationalism.
Add to Orwell's slogans:
TYRANNY IS DEMOCRACY.
I still do not understand why AfD is labelled extremist ? I suppose it is for their stated policies destined to make Germany prosperous and peace loving again.
Because the enemy of globalism is nationalism. Any hint of that is a threat.
Globalism must be taught; nationalism, patriotism and national loyalty tend to emerge naturally among people with a common heritage. Hence mass immigration; this inevitably destroys nations. That's why the North African nations expel subsaharans. They are too different despite all being African.
Everyone knows this. Everyone feels differences like that. It must be educated out of you. And once it is it feels like a superior understanding of life rather than globalist brainwashing.
it sounds like there are quite a lot of AfD voters - but there are also lots of people left who support the old parties. It sounds like it might end in a civil war ! Or may be most are so fed up with politics no one would lift a finger? For many years my family objected to voting for volksunie. Then some 25 years ago they changed their name, and now the prime minister is former volksunie. I jokingly called him the gestapo leader when he marched to the Antwerp city hall years ago when he was voted mayor.
Civil war is a very unlikely scenario. I can't think of many who would want to fight it. Luckily, there is very little appetite for violence. Especially in the East, fear of war is even a driver for growing AfD support, albeit not the major one. Generally, AfD voters want more order not less. This is another reason why the whole narrative of AfD being a threat to the constitution or some sort of resurrected NSDAP is absurd. The more likely scenario is that new parties would emerge that would take AfD's place. BSW could soak up a few % but they are too leftist for most AfD voters, so a new right-wing party would emerge.
Beyond being leftist, there is virtually no historical connection between the West German KPD and modern-day Linke and BSW though.
In the East, the Soviets unified KPD and SPD in 1946, creating the SED that ruled until 1990. In the West, KPD's connections to the SED, and ultimately to Moscow, were the major reason for why they were banned in 1956. After the reunification, the SED didn't cease to exist, but transformed into a democratic socialist party, the PDS, which was only strong in the East. It wasn't until 2007 that they united with WASG, a newly founded party of disappointed left-wing SPD members mainly from the West, to form the Linke of today.
So the Linke, which was only founded 50 years later, is only loosely connected to the historic KPD, although there's certainly some degree of ideological continuity. Shortly after the KPD ban, the DKP was founded in West Germany, followed by other communist splinter parties. The DKP exists to this day and is the most immediate successor to the West German KPD, but it never reached any real significance. However, the KPD had already been in decline for years at the time of the ban, and never got close its importance in the Weimar era. There is no precedence to banning the most popular (or really any widely popular) political party in Germany.
Who are/were the “volksunie”?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Union_(Belgium)
Thanks!
my parents would say the members were with the Germans during the war. I never paid much attention to politics while in Belgium, as the parties between themselves chose who is going to be minister of what. Did not matter who you voted for, I think the system is probably comparable to Germany.
It would be most ironic when the AfD destroys the legitimacy of the system without ever coming to power
That is a great point. Perhaps they are a John the Baptist to some marauding Teutonic Christ we don't yet know about.
Great point!
It's not without historical precedent. In the US, the Socialist Party never came to power... but over the years, its entire platform was assimilated by the Democrats.
In the wider picture, the AfD must be suppressed so that Germany can give €500B of its own weapons and (borrowed) money to Ukraine, because Russia Man Bad.
Nobody, certainly not German voters, can be allowed to object to German voters bankrolling the glorious War of NATO Aggression.
(Background: https://open.substack.com/pub/simplicius76/p/sitrep-42225-ukraine-begs-30-of-bundeswehr)
It must be a disturbing hellscape they live in to operate like this. A form of mental illness shared by the local leaders and much of the laptop class. Do they really think it will end well?
'...declares “unconstitutional” those “parties that, by reason of their aims or the behaviour of their adherents, seek to undermine or abolish the free democratic basic order or to endanger the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany.”'
I fail to see how how all the criteria you describe in this paragraph do not apply to the non-AfD parties in German politics. Their actions are certainly belligerently anti-democratic, after all.
The danger to democracy, by their actions, policies and members, is the CDU and SPD.
Ahhhh, but *they* are in power...
I'd guess from everything you've written to date that easterly Germans are far more clear-eyed about all things real than their westerly not-exactly compatriots.
All of us who found our varied ways to the Plague Era plane of reality have been more than willing to endure bad names thrown at us even by those we love and in most things may continue to regard as intelligent and thoughtful. We've been willing to endure their disappointment or horror at our choices and our convictions. Many of us in the US see Trump not as Orange Jesus but as Orange Not Jesus but the instrument we need, each of us for our own purposes. And our support grew or was birthed in the lawfare against him.
So perhaps it will be necessary over by you as it was over here by us--let 'em have at it. And let 'em see what happens.
FAFO
We're presently at the turn in the endless cycle of history where that gets blazoned on the banners.
?
Fuck Around and Find Out.
It would be courting disaster to ban a party that is preferred by at least 25% of the voters. That would basically be a civil war, and Germany would become ungovernable. If the union parties do not compromise, they will lose all legitimacy. It's that simple.
It appears Germany is implementing a New Morgenthau Plan on themselves.
To an outsider it seems like Germany is doing to itself almost everything Morgenthau once dreamed of. I don't think that's an overstatement. Germany has been willfully pastoralizing, disarming, deindustrializing—and destroying—itself
They've done more harm to themselves than the allies could've ever done after WW2. I guess it wasn't good enough that the "conquerors" rejected making the same mistake they did after WW1 by deciding that wrecking Germany was too harsh...so the German establishment decided to do it to themselves...slowly, over 80 years...and then all at once starting with the Merkel regime.
And they've decided to put fuel on the fire by allowing 1 million immigrants to enter the country illegally, the vast majority of them from the Middle East. Clearly these cultures are hostile to European values and society. It's pretty hard to keep a proud culture when One-fifth of the population was not born in Germany. Couple that with one of the lowest first world fertility rates and it becomes obvious what the end result will be.
But that wasn't enough, so they've diminished the Ruhr, by chasing a foolish "green-scam" to the point it can no longer save the German economy from its own utopian policies.
Basically they're trying to recreate a Germania that Tacitus described 2,000 years ago; something akin to an ancient, pre-civilized frontier.
Its all an exercise in demoralization. That's the point imo. An apathetic society is easy to control.
AfD is a direct threat to their power because it may wake the people up from a long slumber in apathy.
The AfD is a threat because it provides a focus for the masculine drive to protect one's homeland, and that will not do in a modern feminized European state. Even the hint of nationalism is verboten.
But the more they suppress it the more explosive the pushback will ultimately be. We all know what they are capable of when their blood's up.
Well put
> To an outsider it seems like Germany is doing to itself almost everything Morgenthau once dreamed of.
It's fucking amazing, que no?
Sure, but what are France and England's excuses?
I mean, I'd previously thought that the theory that the combined World Wars killed off enough of the "boldest" men that it had a significant impact on the makeup of society in general was over the top, but we're getting to the point where these countries (and my beloved USA is certainly no particular exception) are emasculating and deindustrializing *themselves*. It's started to make me wonder if there's something to the thesis.
The French self flagellation typically revolves around a combination of colonialism and Vichy "collaboration"; it too often leads to some impulse to see themselves snuffed out.
The people whose articles *I* read from Jolly Olde certainly are, but LabTor seems to still be garnering quite a few votes from the rest of the island. Much like here, where there is still a significant percentage of the populace voting D. :-/ And, of course, the premise of this whole article is that while AfD is doing quite well, historically speaking, 74% of the population prefers the status quo, evidently.
Very good point
Observing from a distance here in the US, I can only repeat the common refrain: How will the German people respond to the obviously insane idea to ban the most popular party in the country?
Will they really just roll over and accept it?
Perhaps they'll offer themselves to Turkey as reparations for a racist and unjust anti-capitulation to speedy insertion of millions of migrants?
Can these Champions of Democracy give examples where AfD has shown an “actively belligerent and aggressive stance" towards the democratic order?
People only read the headlines. For many the accusation is enough. Look at liberal women in America who think Trump is going to enslave all women and genocide blacks. They are deranged.
The media class sell the narrative.
Globular Warmening will kill us all long before Trump can finish enslaving women and blacks. It's an Harms Race.
Not so. Putin will genocide us before global cooling, sorry, warming. Or is it the bird flu? China? I can't keep up.
Sounds very odd.
My fave was the headlines years ago in the UK that by 2010 British kids would never see snow. They aren't even embarrassed because the media serve globalists and understand the public has no memory.
It is all magical thinking to garner likes.
I get an an overall positive vibe from what you write today. That's somewhat encouraging. Hopefully before long that silly firewall will evaporate as well.
I do to, strangely. It is all becoming so desperate. Their real enemy is not AfD it is reality.
It seems to be a mind virus among progressives: reality isn't real. Reality is what you want it to be.
At some point the plebs tire of this nonsense.
I think it is closer to this: they think up pleasant things inside their head, utopian schemes, and compare it to real life. Real life does not meet their utopian standard and they become enraged. All this feels good and wins points from other idiots when they announce they are working to eradicate poverty or equalize the sexes.
It is all left-hemisphere fantasy.
Three days of hunger would kill off the pronouns; seven to ensure the sexual deviants recalibrate their lives to something more meaningful. It happens that quick, especially with men as starvation increases testosterone.
A full month of foraging for food in a complex Western society with scarce resources would literally reset everything.
Fascist reality and all its hate-facts cannot be banned soon enough.
They're a diffuse international tyrannical oligarchy that wants an all-powerful state. Some of their actions overlap with communism, some with fascism, but the ideology that drives them is fundamentally different from both.
They are not collectivists, but individualists. They think individuals should be "freed" of every unchosen constraint, whether nationality, religion, family ties or biological sex. All the "bitter clingers" (Obama's term) to those unchosen constraints are considered "far right" and their speech is progressively criminalized, their political leaders arrested and political parties banned. While we think their concept of individualism is perverse, that doesn't turn them into collectivists.
Whatever.
One thing about which I’m unclear: the grounds for banning a party seem to be primarily (solely?) if that party seeks to overthrow the constitutional order - implementing some non-democratic method of choosing the government, etc.
Has the AfD proposed that in some way? I was under the impression their basic platform was “we’ll be elected and then do right wing stuff, but keep having elections, etc”. Is that mistaken? If not, on what legal grounds would the party be banned?
the theory is that they have a secretive anti-democratic agenda hiding beneath their democratic surface. that’s why the BfV surveillance is so crucial - they will try to demonstrate AfV ‘true intentions’, which of course will be total bollocks but that hardly matters. it is a massive mainstream conspiracy theory, basically.
Defensive Democracy: There are only three acceptable flavors of Kool-Aid
How thoroughly weird Germany has become ... worst fears seem capable of being realized ... Very disappointing to view from the partial liberation of U.S. politics ... Germans seem caught. Maybe the UK is no better ... And the EU is a strait jacket hindering European nations from freeing themselves from the betrayal by their political class ... False gods still worshiped, the moldy corpse, an ideology of open and border-less society poisoning everything ...
I am sure the current UK government wants to go the same. I do not think we know all the terms IC the Treaty agreed when TTK visited Germany - was it to coincidentally to enact such authoritarian measures
The Rht Hon Dear Leader Sir Rodney K Starmer MP PM KC, former DPP, former party leader, is without spine and incapable of leadership.
We await his transition.
When is his bottom surgery scheduled?
I think this might happen at any moment. Rest assured, Mr Starmer 'is the law'. Oh yes.
For a moment I thought Linnemann meant it was illegal for voters to migrate away from the electoral cartel. Only in his dreams perhaps.
I've fixed, my translation was ambiguous. thanks for pointing out.