While tanks will make little practical difference for the war, Germany lacks the manufacturing capacity to make good the losses, so European countries will be forced to buy American tanks instead.
Germany - and by extension the rest of the EU - has long since outsourced military security to the US and energy security to the Russians. And all kinds of other stuff to China. Anyway, with a war on, its unsurprising that the Russians are putting the energy squeeze on and the Americans the gun squeeze. But really, can you blame either? Yes, I am victim blaming. This is the real world where utopian bullshit just turns you into someone's bitch. Caveat emptor
This is a great comment. Letting the US pick up the tab for EU defense for the past sixty years hasn't been good for either party. If you let big brother pick up the tab all the time, he is going to be the one making the orders from the menu.
But thank God we got rid of Trump, right? The only guy who was correctly and firmly against all of these wars. And I feel quite confident that he'd have successfully prevented the Ukraine war. Biden's gotten us out of Afghanistan only to replace it with Ukraine.
The US 'picking up the tab' is a great vote winning meme in the United States but it certainly did not consist of the US donating money to or supplying national militaries. What this really refers to is a US demand that we pay the FULL cost of US occupation. w
(Btw My own country Greece allocates 4-5% of our budget to our miilitary, perhaps we are alone in Europe for that. )
The fact is that there was never any threat from USSR and now Russia. THAT was an anglo-american obsession imposed on Europe to justify American occupation. Clear to us instead was that USA was prepared to sacrifice Europe in nuclear war. Some "friend"!
Given the occupation and the reality why should Germany and others bother with excessive militarisation? You might even call the silent refusal to comply the revenge of the occupied :-))
Russia/USSR was invaded multiple times from the West and even from the East (US intervention of early 20th century), resulting in millions of dead people, but somehow they all paint themselves as victims and Russia as aggressor.
You have no idea how Russians feel because most likely YOUR country was never invaded by Russians, was never bombed and nuked, the city your grandparents lived was not under 900-day siege with millions of people starved to death and freezing, your friends or children were not blown up into pieces at airports or in their homes just recently, etc, etc. Once it happens, then we talk. If defending yourself and your children is considered a "threat", we know who the aggressor is. Back off, and you will not feel threatened.
Well to be honest your people haven’t been a threat to anything for a few thousand years. Your argument is nonsense sir. If a country doesn’t like the foreign military presence kick it out. Most Americans would be thrilled to death with that.
"If a country doesn’t like the foreign military presence kick it out."
You seem to have missed the point. And while tough sounding it is a naive statement . Clearly you have never lived under occupation. What do you think those US military bases are for? To protect the local villagers from the evil Soviets / Russkies? No, they are there to control the countries they occupy, to deal with any attempt to kick them out, to "secure" America's occupation. They are enforcers.
The citizens of both USA and Europe want this folly to end.
Thank you for pointing out that Greece has not threatened anyone - since 1922 actually. This is true. Despite this the USA and the Brits sought fit to impose 4 years of drummed up "civil war" (think Syria, Libya etc) on Greece from 1944-49 ie with WW2 nine continuous years of war; followed by the Colonels Military Regime 1967-74 and the division of Cyprus; and most recently by the imposed financial crisis from 2010 to the present. A lot of pain for a country that threatened no one.
I think we are in agreement. So what was wrong with my statement “kick them out”? I’d say the majority of American citizens don’t want us there. Most of the military doesn’t want to be there. The host country’s don’t want us there. Through deductive reasoning why are we there? NWO/WEF et all is about the only reason left. I’m no longer even flying my American flag, and I lost more brothers in 24 years of service in the American army than I can remember at one time. I am not proud of my country anymore. That’s a very hard thing for a guy like me to say. My point is we all need to focus on who’s pulling the strings here.
We're in agreement alright. IMHO the US , like here, is also occupied territory under the notorious [essentially British] Divide and Rule. Like the Ukrainians your brothers were so much cannon fodder - that is the pity and the crime. Stay strong for your country which is badly in need of rescue.
That said, we're not at the point of 'kick them out' ie gratuitously precipitating war inside our borders or at the very least military intervention and coups / tightened grip. For now its a waiting game (lets keep breathing -) not unlike inside the US. The maniacs in Washington have ratcheted up the pain beyond 'too high' to 'existential' on both sides of the Atlantic, a huge gamble, a fantastic go-for-broke risk.....this is NOT an indicator of stength.
You might have missed the stink raised when Trump decided to move troops from Germany to Poland. While perhaps applauded by the anti-US Germans not applauded by the German government at all.
" Despite this the USA and the Brits sought fit to impose 4 years of drummed up "civil war" (think Syria, Libya etc) on Greece from 1944-49..."
I'm not really a fan of NATO, either, but let's be fair: EAM-ELAS look to have been pretty home-grown to me. A lot of that conflict was driven by indigenous conflicts and resentments that had been growing for decades in Greece, and rapidly festered during NAzi occupation.
True enough, EAM (political civilian arm) - ELAS (military) were home grown, and yes there was infighting between them and right wing monarchist factions during WW2. This was a long running split from circa 1900 forward ie Republican Venizelists vs monarchists. BUT. The split was not so toxic or deep or culturally devisive -[what we see in USA now is a lot worse]- that civil war was any kind of outcome, certainly not after 5 years of war, the ruination of most of the country and the 2nd highest death toll after Russia (per % of population). Moreover throughout the war they were united in one goal, defeating nazi occupation.
In the absence of a national government and with a Nazi administrtion that had no on-the-ground knowledge, EAM took over civilian administrtion: food supplies, hospitals, infrastructure repair etc and the whole country and all political stripes were grateful to them for that. It was the events of the Dekemvriani in December 1944 set up by Churchill that turned the communists into a [British, not Greek] enemy that British troops started fighting.
FYI since you seem informed I recommend Mark Mazower's Hitler's Greece for the occupation, EAM-ELAS. And as Dimitris Psarros' great niece my remarks do not come from any sort of "red" corner.
"The fact is that there was never any threat from USSR and now Russia." - Obviously you might have missed the great missile standoff of the late 70's. The Russians deployed SS-20 and the US went to considerable effort and expense, including deployment of the GLCM to get those SS-20's removed from EU boundaries. A real fortune has been spent by the US to prop up NATO. Not the least was deployment of US nuclear weapons in Europe to ensure any tactical nuclear conflict would escalate - done at the request of the Europeans. The EU-US entanglements are purposeful and largely desired by Europe.
NATO fears came alive when Russia decided in invade Ukraine. That domino is all too real.
The 1970s nuclear escalation USA-USSR was a rerun of the previous decade's Cuban Missile Crisis. Most Americans are unaware that the USSR stationed nukes in Cuba not because they were Evil and Crazy but IN RESPONSE TO the US stationing nukes in Turkey.
The 1970s escalation was because the US stationed nukes in West Germany on USSR's border, and elsewhere in Europe - despite overwhelming European opposition.
Russia did not decide to invade Ukraine, it decided to interfere in the humanitarian disaster unleashed by NATO in Eastern Ukraine right next to its border in 2014 soon after Ukraine was invaded by NATO after exhausting every diplimatic method. It's a war deliberately provoked by NATO to justify its existence and luxury lifestyles of its employees. Russia gains absolutely nothing from it unless they just love to inflict self-harm
What else should the people of Donbass be doing facing the every day threat of being killed in their homes and burying their loved ones? They did the only thing they knew - ask a more powerful neighbor for help.
No I did not miss the nuclear escalation, as much the US responsibility as the USSR. What you missed or did not hear about (long controlled media-) was the overwhelming opposition to the US nukes inside Europe . There was no EU at that point (ie US appointed admin), it was - please note! - NATO that requested nukes. And just who IS in charge of NATO?
Europe pays no where close to the full cost of US occupation. Security of Europe/Greece costs way more than 4-5% of gdp.
America should not be anywhere besides USA. But to pretend the occupied countries don’t massively benefit financially is naive. How do you think Europe manages its aggressive social programs? It’s bc of the US military gift.
Cede some sovereignty and gain some social bennies. This has been the trade off. I think the actual people of both Europe and USA are done with this arrangement.
Not sure about Greece, but Germany failed to even pay 2% of gdp for defense. Which caused Trump to threaten to remove troops in 2020. Germany of course begged the US to stay since they benefit greatly from all the US military being stationed there.
Standard practice. All Nazi occupied states had the privilge of paying the occupiers expenses, for example.
Germany's status is a mystery. As with Japan, no peace treaty has been signed between Germany and the US since the war : technically they are stll at war. Both defeated powers continue to operate on the US-composed Basic Law handed to them post-war . Re-unification has not changed this : thus neither Germany nor Japan has its own sovereign constitution.
On the other hand the US appointed its defeated and still occupied enemy Germany as its number one power in Europe, essentially representing Europe in Washington... to the surprise and consternation of not only its former Allies : Germany was and is a power in Europe but by no means its cultural or civilisational heart. The USA then unilaterally granted the world's biggest (and still unsurpassed) debt cut for Germany on the 1953 London Conference - at the expense of its Allies and the rest of Europea. Moreover the remaining German debt was to be repaid at Germany's leisure, unlike the stringent repayment conditions for the rest. The US then invested heavily in Germany, bringing about the 2nd 'German Miracle' (Hitler's was the first).
Germany's Deutschemark eventually became the euro, administered by the Bundesbank (ie BB is in charge of every Eurozone country's budget). While the euro strongly favoured Germany it has been disatrous for the rest, allowing Germany to act as a mercantilist power inside Europe, showing no mercy or contrition towards the inevitably bankrupted PIIGS, and certainly no debt cuts, Mein Gott!
The trade off appears to have been purely economic, while occupied Germny remains US forward base and HQ.
Because they don’t have to pay so much for defense. It’s symbiotic, but Germany isn’t the victim here. I hope they resist giving the tanks to the Ukraine, however they’re as complicit in this as anyone. They’re in the top 5 economies in the world. If the German government didn’t want the US military there they wouldn’t be there. France kicked the US out fairly quickly after WWII. Germany could do that whenever they wanted. So why don’t they?
THURSDAY, 1-26 . . As of today, Germany has agreed to provide Leopards & will allow other countries to provide Leopards (about 20 countries have purchased Leopards) - supposedly because the U.S. has agreed to provide about 30 tanks
Aren't BOTH squeezes US-made? US could not tolerate Russia's competition in both the weapon sales and energy market, and, alas, it cannot compete on fair terms any more.
American exceptionalism will be the death of Europe. Whether you like it or not. For this reason, the individual European countries need to shed the EU cloak and stand tall both individually and together in whatever form actually benefits each nation. I might suggest looking to Hungary for guidance. Otherwise, you will be sucked into the political, cultural and economic mire that has become the collective "West". Not so good. Pray, plan, prepare and RESIST.
> "individual European countries need to shed the EU cloak and stand tall both individually and together in whatever form actually benefits each nation"
Exactly my thoughts. I'm really tired of paying for everyone else's military defense. Let Europe cover that themselves.
the global american empire actively seeks to involve itself in the defence of Europe and is right now aiming to undermine native european defence industries. it's a deliberate strategy.
The entire Ukraine war was engineered by the US military-industrial complex and the money skimmers from both Parties to make donors & politicians even richer. Putin would not have invaded had the US not pushed for Ukraine NATO membership. As another commenter noted, Europe hated Trump; the war & US defense contractors becoming billionaires in Europe’s back would not have happened had the ‘20 US election not been stolen. Oops, bad call EU Socialists. As they say in Poland, toughski shitski.
Eugyppus you are very naive. The US has never given a fig about defending Europe, it was all abot OCCUPYING Europe. If US cared about Europe they would not have made us Ground Zero of US-USSR nuclear war.
Oh, come on. The US soldiers went into Europe, fought and died to save you from the Nazi troops of Hitler, and the US taxpayers paid and paid to help rebuild your ravaged countries. And saying US made Europe Ground Zero of the US-USSR nuclear war is rewriting history. US troops stayed and US taxpayers built bases like Ramstein Air Base because Germany split into GDR (allied with the USSR, part of the Eastern Block in the Cold War) and the FDR. After WWII, the US and UK airlifted supplies to blockaded Berlin for approx. 18 months to save Germans from starvation and deprivation. So, the battle lines were set in Europe long before your saying the US made Europe Ground Zero.
Starting in 1947, the Marshall Plan rebuilt Europe. Back then, the USA was powerful and rich. Now it has grown to be an over-extended empire that relies on mercenaries to spread its domination of the planet. Things will not end well. There are many similarities between Caligula and the Biden Crime Syndicate.
I gather you learned history in the United States and probably live there.
Certainly US participated late in the war and many bravely died, that is undisputed. You entered the war around the time the Soviets began to beat the Germans, turning the tide of the war.
My country Greece and neighbour Serbia were under Nazi occupation, both countries tying them down in partisan war since there were no armies to help us. This delayed Germany in its assault against Russia: the Nazis withdrew. No one liberated us. No American came to Greece until 1945 when they imposed a totally unnecessary "civil war" until 1949 fighting local communists. This was the first act of the Cold War. Unnecessary because the division of Europe and %s had been decided between FDR, Churchill and Stlin at tehran and Yalta - there was no "communist threat" in Greece and Stalin did not come to the Greek communists aid. But US could try out the first use of napalm and UK the first military jets.
US taxpayers did indeed build the US bases : this was for the occupation of Europe. US taxpayers did NOT pay to rebuild Europe : the Marshall Plan was a loan scheme for those who could afford it that benefitted US corporations only. Few countries could afford it, or afford much. This was on top of the Lend Lease program, another loan scheme with interest that took on average 50 years to pay off. USA benefitted mightily out of the war both financially and geopolitically.
The new division of Europe was announced by Churchill in Missouri in 1944 - the "Iron Curtain". The USSR had not threatened the West but found itself the enemy. Wake up please, war is a racket and the victor populations are told a pack of lies to feel good. I'd think you'd have noticed that after the ridiculous excuses and outright lies made to justify Iraq 1 and 2, Afghanistan, Libya, Yugoslavia, Somalia, Syria...Korea, Vietnam - all wars of choice.
So the USSR was just like Turkey. They occupied large parts of Europe, including Greece, to protect them from corrupt and rapacious European empires. They kept them from being exploited while helping them accept the true (and more just) faith of Islam.
Maybe you should talk to the people of eastern Europe who spent almost 50 years under USSR occupation before you talk about "ridiculous excuses and outright lies". The Iron Curtain was there to keep the occupied people of Eastern Europe from leaving, not the "occupied" people of Western Europe from entering their "worker's paradise". Be thankful your country was not in the Soviet Zone.
This is a long and convoluted historical discussion about people that had a variety of different goals, ideas, and attitudes, some which were thoughtful and moral, most which were wrong and mostly politically motivated by greed and for power control. We are still learning the truth about the people involved and the large and small issues involve in the various negotiations. There were people who wanted to continue the war and defeat the Russians in order to defeat Communism but the US and Britain did not want to draw out the war, as they knew their citizens would not agree to more deaths, especially against a country that had been their "ally", that was so large, and with the need to still defeat Japan. Churchill and Roosevelt felt it best to divide the areas instead of fight over the issue of Communism, a disaster for the people whose lives they were deciding, and a wrong decision in moral terms. They should have listened to the military people who stressed the need to fight for freedom for all people, but they were weak.
Military bases have remained because governments have asked for them to protect against a variety of political moves over the years. Some are legitimate threats as they were during the Cold War. Some are due to political negotiations that go on constantly behind closed doors, dealings we citizens never hear about, but are give and take, the US gets to keep a base and that country gets funding for rebuilding their infrastructure, or money to fund their debt, or disaster funding. Governments exchange favors all the time. The bases allow the US closer access to Russia, China, and other enemy countries for espionage missions and protection of ambassadors (ha!).
And it's about money. Oil, drugs, human trafficking, guns. We, the citizens, in the US are learning. Politicians aren't who they were pre-WWII, people who generally believed in the good of the country and people. They aren't of the type of Washington, Jefferson, Adams wanting a country that is for freedom and independence, for people who live for personal responsibility and equal justice. Politicians are more often involved with big business and attempting to manipulate laws in order to influence stocks and make financial gains, whether that means creating wars, the need for military weapons, spurring drug trade, advancing the need for more oil or less to drive up prices, limit the use of fossil fuels to push climate change to make financial gain off green/renewable energy.
In the end it seems we all, citizens, are on the losing end. As a US citizen, I'm coming to terms with the fact that people I thought were the "good guys" in my government, the "side" I thought was the "better side" was in fact lying just as much as the other side. That they've all been just as evil, crooked, self-serving, wrong. The last few years have been very eye-opening, but depressing, and has made me really angry. It's also made me really concerned, and feel very helpless. I've always been taught that to change things we vote, vote new people into office to change things. But the more I vote, the more the wrong people are in office. The last few elections all I see are sorry-assed people put up for choices when we have 300+million people to choose from. Where are the ones who have valor, honor, respectability, class, decorum, military service, maturity, knowledge and belief of our Constitution & Declaration, national pride, patriotism, confidence, duty, honesty? I left the political party I had been a member of for over 35 years and became independent and will never again vote for the "lesser of the evils" even if the evil one wins. And I understand now that I must put my trust in God because our only hope is in His decision as to whether or not our country keeps its freedom. There may be people who feel a war is needed to regain our government, although I hope that we can still return to our Constitutional values through the process contained in it. I believe in following the legal process.
If and when we do I agree that the US should only have bases in countries where we have a legit reason for them, because we've been asked for protection from invading countries, and then we return to the US. We're not the country we were before WWII and I doubt we ever will be. That's difficult to wrap my (our) minds around. It was a place and thought of honor, we wanted to be able to honestly help, aid, give, assist others who needed us in a giving and protective manner. It wasn't to feel or be arrogant, elitist, snobby, it was because I (we) (felt) so fortunate to have what we did, peace, calm, more after the war and we wanted to share that with everyone who had been hurt, damaged, left with so little. I don't know how to explain it, I know it mattered to me, I cared and still care, and want people to know that even now I hurt for the people who are hurt, destroyed, damaged, terrorized by war and terrorized by war and evil people. I know it may/will come here eventually, but until it does I still want to assist those affected by the harm of war.
I might suggest a reading of The Liberation Trilogy by Atkinson that tracks the US involvement in WWII. The Marshall plan was a $12B outlay by the US (worth $140B 2022) and a joint re-industrialization of the EU. Those $12B were NOT loans, no repayment has ever been made. It did benefit US and EU corporations. The USSR became an enemy after it broke certain promises over countries then occupied by Russia post war. The hidden pact betwenn Stalin and FDR was broken but FDR did ensure the UK Empire was ended, a goal of FDR.
US rebuilt Europe with money that flowed to US from Europe as a result of the war. It was so successful, that US is clearly re-engineering that type of scenario.
I do not pretend to be a military or political strategist; but it strikes me that Europe has trusted and depended on the US for so long that the EU has neglected to protect itself from Biden's Amerika. Once the continent has been bankrupted and ruined, it will be easy pickings for the Nazis that currently rule both the USA and Ukraine.
But it was Merkel when put Germany in this spot. Yes, The US is absolutely awful with the CIa involvement and the pathetic proxy plays with the undersea oil footsie battles, but ultimately the Germans need to reflect on the type of leadership they need to get out of these scenarios.
I wholeheartedly agree. Let's see if a German politician holding those views can make it past the party gatekeepers, and if he does, will election rules suddenly be changed to allow mail-in ballots and electronic vote tabulation?
Whether or not that is their aim, it is doomed to failure. The European defence industry isn't going away, it is merely shifting to countries that take defence seriously.
The main beneficiaries will be Poland, Turkey, Sweden and when the war is over, Ukraine.
The GAE actively seeking to involve itself in the defense of the EU is like big pharma actively seeking to involve itself in the fight against covid. They not only created the problem, but every solution they impose makes the situation worse.
because of American security guarantees, and because of manoeuvres and relentless pressure to invest in American arms and outsource defence to the Americans. I won't deny that European nations should spend more on their own defence, but this world is also a deliberate creation of American foreign policy.
Features, not bugs. If you sell widgets, you need demand for widgets or your stock price goes down. What better way to pump up demand than to have a large percentage of the existing inventory suddenly get "lost"?
American industry will easily (and gladly) ramp up arms production if there's a big war - just give them a couple of years. The weapons and equipment abandoned in Afghanistan were mostly worn and/or obsolete items not worth shipping back - not as big a deal as some in the media were suggesting. That stuff would have only rotted away in storage. Such things are always left behind during a retreat or an evacuation. The upside is that the Taliban will require spares if they want to keep it operating.
Agreed that the US foreign policy is abominable, but Germany basically leads the EU bloc and their strategy has been one of taking “freebies with strings” and milquetoast foreign policy. At least the Americans here can freely admit to the self loathing of the CIA maneuvers and money laundering taking place abroad, but we actively seek to remedy this by voting different people in with the hope of making change. I only see the vast majority of Germans sadly not reflecting on anything like this, just doing what they are told. Too few free thinkers like you Eugyppius, how can you change that?
Exactly, Germany needs to leave the EU- it would be the perfect way to disintegrate the whole EU full of bloated bureaucracy and the Build Back Crappier WEF team. Germany needs a leader with a backbone who isn’t afraid of being proud of being German and start paying back into the NATO army pool. Germany is in this weak position after allowing Merkel to neuter them and get sandwiched between her friend Russia (who she inherently relates to) and letting the US pick up the NATO bill to her detriment. They also have to stop unfettered immigration (like in the US- this is another WEF globalist style plan to keep people under control and “cheap”, which, of course, they aren’t really).
Of course it is about hurting Germany, and Europe in general. As a UK resident I am ashamed of the position our government has taken in support of the USA and against our natural allies in Europe and across the world. Nothing good will come of supporting the rise of neo-Nazis in our own backyard.
Wait a minute.... the EU has a post-Brexit population of what... 300Million? And an [almost] free economy to match. To paint the EU as a victim is a real stretch.
The UK voted to leave the EU (economic union) by referendum. This in 2020 when the favorite sport of UK citizens was to absolutely hate the nasty US president, and by extension all things American. I think because the Island Nation is loved by its people. (They cohabited with the Continent, but never really committed... kept the Queen on their currency.)
Not buying it. I've lived in Germany as a US expat. Got 70+ entry stamps on my dusty passports. Great people. No knowledge of their own history. Patriotism is abhorred. Complacent about their own security. German flag sales absolutely suck. All international relations are measured in economic terms IMO. The Germans and all EU nations have autonomy and make their choices.
How can you believe Germany has autonomy and can make its own choices after the US blew up Nordstream 2? Germany is a vassal of the Globalist American Empire.
I admit I am astounded how the NS2 event has been memory-holed. But I don't see it as proof GDR is a vassal state. I don't see subservience reflected in the attitudes of my German friends. I have no idea what's going on with NS2.
The Globalist American Empire? I see them as competing, but currently allied "empires", along with China as a third power. In fourth place would be a popular nationalist/isolationist movement within the United States, as evidenced by Donald Trump's breakthrough victory in 2016. Germany may have some nascent nationalism as well, but perhaps fear of another Hitler still casts a long shadow.
The US occupation in 1945 and the Marshall Plan were also heavily laden with corruption and theft, at first by individuals and soon after by US corporations. Foreign aid and military aid are little more than racketeering.
The US, British, French and Soviet occupation. Adenauer's Wirtshaftwunder, economic miracle, that arose from the ashes of West Germany was enabled by the Marshall plan. Of course there was corruption. But the fact remains.
A small correction - the UK vote to leave the EU (current population 447Million) was June 2016, but Trump wasn't elected until November 2016, so claiming that Brits "favorite sport" was hating him and "all things American by extension" was certainly not founded at that time. However, he certainly did become unpopular later thanks to a large extent by the invariably negative way he was lampooned by the MSM, which continues to this day.
As an American I am appalled by what is happening in Ukraine and our blackmail in Europe.
But let's not forget that WW1 is the root cause of all that has unfolded over the last century.
WW1 was an unjust war. Might add , it started in Europe with no real tangible involvement from the US in the beginning.
If it wouldn't have been for the crushing reparations, etc. put on the German people after WW1 then we would not have had to save your asses in WW2 from being a Nazi.
It is how America went from a pacifist nation to a warmongering imperialism
I don't think the Americans saved Europe from being Nazi. It was the Red Army, the Soviets. Americans were generous to Europe once they entered the war and the British, had to pay back the loans. I think your connecting the Ukraine war and WW1 is a bit of a stretch. Regards from New Zealand. How pleased my parents were when the Americans took on the Japanese!
I suspect one US General Patton would beg to differ about the Red army as it entered Germany, but no matter. Had the US not provided the Reds with the tools of war, the Reds could not have afforded the huge losses sustained in pushing Germans out.
The connection between WWI is appeasement by the UK not standing up for Europe; same for the Bolsheviks taking over Russia and then the same for WWII. Taking a stand for Ukraine rather than another Minsk is avoidind WWIII.
Taking a stand for nazi killing its own citizens because they speak a different language instead of condemning them is fuelling the war, not stopping it.
Hello Ryan, I don't understand your dismissal of my comment as its pretty orthodox conclusion of historians that the Red Army defeated the Germans and Eisenhower himslef allowed them the honour of entering Berlin first. For your information I've never worn a mask. AS you have obviously missed the news Ardern has resigned but if you wish to greet her she still sits in Parliament and you could send her a message yourself @parliament.nz. And as a hint kindly meant it would be "lie" not "lay" intransitive verb not trransitive.
Thanks for the grammar lesson. Log in the eye. Look how you spelled your last word. Give me a break. A pedantic always reveals themselves.
You would be speaking Japanese and Europe would be speaking German if it were not for the US. Not just because 450k Americans died on the soil of other countries, but because of our production capability.
That was for your FREEDOM. Not ours. Good luck to Hitler trying to invade the US.
Do you think Eisenhower needed to honor anything, given we had the a-bomb?
Wasnt't it Wall st bankers funding Hitler's adventure to conquer USSR? Things didn't go according to plan back then, so now we see the replay with Zelensky / Ukraine
So why are the doing it? Why are they going along with such a self-destructive US GAE-drive when it so harms their own self-interest? Why is Finland (which has long recognized the importance of not antagonizing Russia) now clamoring to join NATO? It can't just be that ditzy party broad who supposedly runs the place is a secret Neocon American stooge.
The EU must see the US GAE goals as aligning with its own as there is no other reasonable explanation. Remember the massive 1980's protests against the Reagan-Thatcher installation of nuclear-armed missiles in Europe? Europeans knew that would make them a first-strike target and probably was not in their own best interests. Why isn't there a hint of that defiance now?
I'm no fan of the GAE but there's something bigger going on here beyond standard yankee-doodle imperialism.
Starting with Finland, the "leader" made this decision, refusing a referendum despite popular outcry. No democracy there.
Meanwhile the decision to support US sanctions was made unilaterally by the EU, an unelected body run by Washington, its personnel appointed by Washington
.
You may have noticed the general low quality of European leaders : suffice to say that no leader gets through without the approval and active support of the local US embassies, who also invent parties when necessary, POTAMI in Greece is an example. Naturally they do not seek intelligent, tough minded patriots.
Thus the puppets obediently fall in to line if / when their approval is sought.
Both Erdogan and Orban were originally American protogees. But when crisis hit they both turned out to be patriots. Thus their vilification.
In other words there is literally no democracy in Europe ; the citizens of Europe have no say in the "decisions" made above their heads. Pretty much the same as in USA.
If you want an in depth discussion about this, I highly recommend The Duran, available on Rumble as well as several other sites (including You Tube, if you still go there). Alexander Mercouris and Alex Christophorus, the two commentators also have individual channels. There is also The New Atlas with Brian Berlettic who does a thrice weekly analysis of the military situation with a heavy emphasis on military hardware. Just like with covid and the vaccines, this story is not covered at all in the MSM and there is a lot to know. Most of what you read or see on TV is lies.
The true intent is two-fold. This enriches the corporate oligarchs while simultaneously placing immense burden on the working class. The people pay ever-increasing taxes and suffer infinite inflation while some others are maimed and wounded in the manufactured physical conflict. Absurdly evil.
It's ALL about draining resources and nothing to do with security or safety or sovereignty.
Jan 23, 2023·edited Jan 23, 2023Liked by eugyppius
Germany is the leading economic and political power within the EU. As long as the Germans are unwilling to stand up for themselves, as long as they allow themselves to be humiliated, Europe will stay demoralized.
"The Germans are unwilling and incapable of retaliating in either action or words [mainly to NS2]. That’s the state of the leading economic and political power in Europe at this point. Yet Germany is still willing and capable of bossing the rest of Europe around; so in effect we’re lead by cowards."
The benchmark of Berlin's cuckery is the tone of Warsaw: the more outrageous the Poles are when it comes to addressing Germany, the greater Berlin's submission. This can't persist forever: Germany is the greatest elephant on the continent, economically. This hasn't changed by a war in Slavistan, it's the result of 70 years of buildup, it won't change overnight.
You have got to laugh! It really is all about the money.
The USA is totally captured by its global industrialised warfare industry.
They've transferred everything else to China. - what else have they got left. The corporations make the arms and buy the politicians and the defence spending increases every year. Any country that becomes part of NATO needs huge military upgrades, and if business slacks off, well they just start a war.
The UK can't even control its own nuclear weapons without US say so, and we spend millions on F35 fighters, which are always breaking down - the same ones Canada is just about to purchase.
War is good for business and the US are the masters of manipulation. Unfortunately it all comes at a cost which may ultimately destroy them as well as their national debt hits 30 trillion dollars.
Meanwhile corporations like Monsanto are standing by to reconstruct Ukraine once the fighting is over - to introduce GM crops and pesticides to poison us all.
The Americans really have dropped their Nice Guy persona haven't they? They really are being exposed as the Bad Guys they probably always were in the post war world. Scary. Growing up during the Cold War I was always more afraid of the Americans, with their good teeth and happy families and Coca Cola, stomping across the world pretending they cared. My father (a completely different generation) was scared of both the Reds and the Yanks. The Reds now look like the guys who are trying to retaliate after years of being pushed into a corner by arrogant old Uncle Sam.
Employing the openly terrorist tactics with zero care for optics - since they are finding out they can get away with anything with no one having the power to stop them, why would they care what the unwashed masses think?
Genuine question: I appreciate that much of this donation of kit is political rather than military but how, exactly, do the West think the Ukes will operate these vehicles?
They require a serious logistics chain just for the ammunition, never mind repairs. What also of training?? That takes considerable time and practice and the Russians have been learning *very* quickly.
The Ukrainians are already operating a diverse fleet of Western Kit - most of which is designed to be easier to operate than Soviet weaponry. This racist nonsense about ignorant Holhols being too stupid to comprehend the wonders of the Western tech is one of the silliest yet most pernicious myths of the past year.
Cool story bro: that's not what I said. The war is barely a year old and training normally takes weeks and months. A certain amount can be trimmed but only so much.
Are you sure Western kit is easier to operate? If I remember correctly Russian doctrine is for cheap, easy-to-manufacture and simple-to-operate equipment e.g. the AK-47.
Certainly, modern Western artillery such as the Caesar, Pzh-2000 etc is much easier to use - aiming is pretty much entirely computerised. Likewise Soviet Anti-air is less computerised and requires more training to use effectively.
And if you're a trained tank driver, switching from a T72 to a Leopard or Abrams is going to be a piece of piss - the principles are the same. Nobody goes for driving lessons when they trade their Mercedes in for a Hyundai.
As for logistics - Western logsstics systems are much more standardised and mechanised than Russian ones logistics. Check out how a HIMARS is reloaded compared to Soviet MLRS.
I don't know why everyone goes on about supply-chain logistics anyways. Consider what Amazon ships every day, or any large courier such as DHL or UPS, or large supermarket chains. These are vastly more complex supply chains than what a military faces.
I'll have to take your first point on faith. I would be surprised if repairs and other maintenance were as simple as operation however.
Neither Amazon nor DHL have to operate under fire. If these things were so simple then Afghanistan/Iraq would not have needed such colossal logistics operations, but they did.
The difficulties of maintenance and repair, like the issue of training is another grossly inflated myth. A diesel engine is a diesel engine whether Russian or German, a gas turbine is a gas turbine, whether in an Abrams or a T80. Hydraulic systems all work on the same principle no matter what language the designers, builders, and maintainers speak. And it's worth remembering that kit like the Leopard, Abrams, Bradley, and Marder are relatively old designs dating back to the 70s and 80s - a lot of the technogy isn't exactly cutting edge.
In any event, a lot of the heavy maintenance and repair won't even be done in Ukraine but in NATO countries. This is already the case with NATO supplied artillery systems. Pzh 2000, Krabs etc are being sent back to NATO countries for barrel refurbishment and other heavy maintenance before being returned to Ukrains.
Afghanistan was a logistics problem because of lack of transportation infrastructure. This is not a problem with Ukraine which has a large and efficient rail network and a highway network as well.
And the point about Amazon et al still stands. Enemy fire only becomes an issue the last few miles before the front line, particularly in this war where the Russians are seriously lacking in up-to-date intelligence.
How many Ukrainians are capable of that maintenance and at what rate are they being killed or injured? Are there enough to carry out the volume necessary?
Ukraine is a large country and sending everything to us to fix takes time and lengthens chains that can be damaged or delayed by enemy action or weather amongst other things.
Please feel free to bookmark this conversation and return to it later. I think that the new armour will be ground into the mud and overall be ineffective, contrary to some Grand Poobah in the Daily Mail today who thinks that this will turn the tide. They will keep asking for more and more kit which won't win the war and we will be pushed into providing it by the Americans.
I do remember a plane crash in Russia because the pilots were used to fly soviet-made planes but their airline bought a Boeing or Airbus where control systems had a different logic that the pilots were not used to (not to mention two MAX crashes). Why would it be any different with weapons?
The German's fate is in the German's hands. If they want us out all they have to do is tell us to leave and get serious about defending themselves (to include things like not letting us do silly illegal things like blowing up pipelines.) I would like nothing better than to close down all those Europeean resort bases we have like Ramstein, bring back our people and use the money on the Navy. The question is: How will the other Europeans react to the Germans getting serious about defending themselves? That is also in the hands of the Germans.
Not to be defensive... but I'd argue that this is not "America" but rather a transnational elite. It's an empire without a metropole. The United States just happens to be the biggest asset in its portfolio.
It is hard to gauge him, he seemed to be without morals or a backbone, but hopefully he holds fast here. Macron seems to be on his side, that may help.
I could imagie that the US wants our defense industry contracts, but for Germany this is not such a crucial industry. The car industry is much more important.
If Europe is to even partially re-arm in preparation for another cold war-style international situation, defence industry could become a much bigger area than it is now.
Jan 23, 2023·edited Jan 23, 2023Liked by eugyppius
I like all of your bullet points, but then you go and spoil it with your ending slogan. As a patriotic American who deeply loves his country, I want to be free of globohomo domination too!
From what I’ve seen and read, America does not have a monopoly on Leftist, family-destroying social lunacy. Had Europe not bought into the “social liberal/fiscal conservative” unicorn decades ago, it wouldn’t be the weak post modern nanny state it is. The American UniParty in DC is truly evil I admit but Europe hates Trump as much as the US Socialists & testosterone-free Republican Party does. There were no new wars under Trump and when he insisted Europe pay more for its own defense, he was right & Europeans know it. If you take Daddy’s money, you play by Daddy’s rules. I’ll be more understanding of lectures by Europeans when the most popular baby name in London stops being Mohammed.
Truth is European citizens (UK doen't count) loved Trump , but the EU Kleptocracy is a Washington invention manned by brainless appointees who obediently hated Trump.
FYI, most of continental Europe is decidely un-Woke. And I haven't seen a single Ukrainian flag in Greece and Cyprus....
Me thinks much Bullshit is being spread here - is this not what Trump said to all meetings and speeches he gave?
Yet he was vilified endlessly still and he told everyone stand for yourselves, take your own nationalism.
How is America to supply so much of what you are suggesting in armaments? We are lead by a senile old man who cannot find his ass with both hands and proves his diaper changing ways daily.
He has completely sold his soul and country to China - and the people of the USA are more than willing to support the idea of the things you don’t
Want to have or see from the US but of course tell the ignorant masses of the US who fail to read or understand anything outside of where and when their next welfare check is coming.
Most of the people of the US are
still accepting the blather of WEF, the MSM of the US, WHO and all alphabet groups of the senile old man and his handlers so how on earth do you expect anything different?
seems to be China as everyone else seems to be absorbed by their largesse as well as allowing their unbound approach to buying everything else in the world.
Land, strategic supplies of minerals, political influence bought and paid for fomenting the unrestrained migrations to every country of not only their citizens but supporting those migrations around the world.
An awful lot of dust kicked up obscuring maybe the total picture?
You can find many different scenarios, pick one you like and go for it. At least it induces lots of wild ideas and keeps everyone navel gazing in their own scenario of choice.
The German media on Trump was something to behold - absolutely Orange man bad on steroids. All the things he listed there he can be free to hate but it’s also self-inflicted- especially as long as Germans love leaders like Merkel. A lot of navel gazing going on. The US populace and German populace actually suffer under many of the same issues, but I fear the German populace is less likely to resist.
We’d be happy to leave. However we don’t hold the monopoly in wacko leftist crap. Europe is full of militant Muslims from all over the globe. The emasculation of the western man surely took root in Europe. The combined military of all of Europe couldn’t touch the American military. And your politicians continue to suck at our teat. Perhaps you should do some house cleaning. And do us a favor, throw us out! The American people will only benefit from once again reflecting inward. We can do without the German vehicles. Nothing else over there will be missed much.
I don't agree at all. The M1A1 is an apex weapons system. It was precisely designed for this kind of conflict and is far superior to both the T72 and Leopard. The main issue with providing them to the Ukrainians is that they are very complicated and would take about a year of training to operate competently. The maintenance and supply chain are also complex and expensive. I don't really get this argument over battle tanks, since they are only effective as part of a combined arms effort. The Russians failure around Kiev illustrates that you can't just drive them in and hope everyone flees in fear, they have to be used in combination with infantry, artillery and airpower. I am not sure that the Ukrainians have the resources or training to use them effectively in combined arms tactics.
Perhaps had the many Ukrainians oligarchs - including the Uke Prez - not pillaged their own country, Ukraine would have an actual defense strategy & equipment against a hostile regime on its eastern border. This war is dictator vs dictator & even stupid American voters are starting to tire of it.
It's even easier than that. All they had to do was to stop bombing Donbass and threatening to nuke Russia. Russia had literally zero appetite for invading any part of Ukraine before 2014
It seems to me that this battlefield is not a classic tank warfare scenario of open fields and defined fronts. Perhaps tanks are not useful. Russian tanks don't seem to be very effective so far.
Agree. They would be far better served if Ukranian troops were supplied with lots of anti tank weapons. The geography is well suited for hit and run tank destruction with cheap (relatively) weapons.
Not at all. The US decided to leave. What is true is that much like Vietnam, if you do not use force, you cannot subdue the opposition. The Rules in Afghanistan crippled the use of force. Notice when Trump removed the rules on ISIS, the caliphate ended.
Soviet T80s, some of which are operated by Ukraine use a turbine engine. Abrams are operated and maintained by the likes of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Morocco.
Looks like you are indeed correct; Russian media is reporting today that the Biden Administration is strongly considering providing Abrams tanks to Ukraine. I do wonder how this will turn out.
I think I can confidently say that the US military has never been so perfectly ready for a war as it was desert storm. The military of today would be almost unrecognizable to someone who retires in the 1980s. We are a shell of our former selves. And I can’t believe that it’s by accident.
That’s a well stated argument sir. It would be silly to think that Iraq tank crews are anything like Russian crews. However it’s a wide held belief that the gulf war effectively ended the Cold War because the Russians and Chinese watched that go down. Like the never ending see saw of military advancements, the Russians started with cyber and the Chinese with super sonic missiles. I think the tank and the aircraft carrier may soon go the way of the battleship. It’s interesting that all this is happening at a time when america is fairly weak as a military. Internally and against some newer technology.
Is it just me, or does the entire tank debate sound contrived and ridiculous? When you see how easy it is to target and destroy tanks with precision missiles guided by drones with full spectrum vision they look like deathtraps on the modern battlefield. Like battleships became after aircraft carriers easily dispatched them from the sky. Tanks don't seem to me to be the threat they once were when facing an adversary who commands the sky. I'd love to learn why I'm wrong if I am.
I had the exact thought! Other than the artillery protection advantage tanks can’t really even hold ground. They don’t typically work well without infantry support.
Perhaps you are not aware that Ukraine is doing a decent job of dispatching many of those Russian/Iranian drones. Better air defenses would improve even that. Air defenses are keeping both sides from doing as much as they might like in the air.
I entertain that thought. But tanks are just too easily destroyed on the modern battlefield with relatively inexpensive munitions. Maybe it's a failure of my imagination, always possible.
But without air superiority tanks are tough to defend. I'm sure a war college graduate could educate me. But that would be totally reliant on accurate information on the ground. Which is hardly reliable.
The propaganda lies abound, cast doubt upon all information from those same sources. Are *these* leaders telling us their stories trustworthy in any sense of that word?
Living the daily lies we live with, have had our lives intruded upon so greatly based on lies these past three years, much longer if you've been payng attention. These sources trustworthy to you? Anyone?
Tanks just seem like really expensive sitting ducks.
Germany - and by extension the rest of the EU - has long since outsourced military security to the US and energy security to the Russians. And all kinds of other stuff to China. Anyway, with a war on, its unsurprising that the Russians are putting the energy squeeze on and the Americans the gun squeeze. But really, can you blame either? Yes, I am victim blaming. This is the real world where utopian bullshit just turns you into someone's bitch. Caveat emptor
This is a great comment. Letting the US pick up the tab for EU defense for the past sixty years hasn't been good for either party. If you let big brother pick up the tab all the time, he is going to be the one making the orders from the menu.
Yep. Takes two to tango. But still, as an American, I am ashamed of our warmongers.
Warmongers in the US are/were on both sides of the aisle.
Songbird McCain who never met a war he didn't like. Old geezer warmonger Henry Kissinger. Lindsey Graham. Nancy Pelosi.
It is never their kids dying on a battlefield in some shithole country.
Agreed. The money to be made in war transcends political lines.
But thank God we got rid of Trump, right? The only guy who was correctly and firmly against all of these wars. And I feel quite confident that he'd have successfully prevented the Ukraine war. Biden's gotten us out of Afghanistan only to replace it with Ukraine.
Well, McCain probably did not like the Vietnam War - at least for the five years he was a prisoner of war in North Vietnam.
His fellow prisoners called him "Songbird" because he sang like a canary.
No silly; that is because he was afraid of cats :P...
Nonsense a disgruntled vet created the smear https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2008/jan/17/vietnam-veterans-against-john-mccain/no-evidence-mccain-was-a-traitor/. I'm inclined to believe Bud Day.
How many of us could resist 5 years of torture? Approximately zero.
I did not like McCain, he was a bad Senator. But I have to give him credit for serving and risking his life for his country.
The US 'picking up the tab' is a great vote winning meme in the United States but it certainly did not consist of the US donating money to or supplying national militaries. What this really refers to is a US demand that we pay the FULL cost of US occupation. w
(Btw My own country Greece allocates 4-5% of our budget to our miilitary, perhaps we are alone in Europe for that. )
The fact is that there was never any threat from USSR and now Russia. THAT was an anglo-american obsession imposed on Europe to justify American occupation. Clear to us instead was that USA was prepared to sacrifice Europe in nuclear war. Some "friend"!
Given the occupation and the reality why should Germany and others bother with excessive militarisation? You might even call the silent refusal to comply the revenge of the occupied :-))
"The fact is that there was never any threat from USSR and now Russia."
LOL
Russia/USSR was invaded multiple times from the West and even from the East (US intervention of early 20th century), resulting in millions of dead people, but somehow they all paint themselves as victims and Russia as aggressor.
You have no idea how Russians feel because most likely YOUR country was never invaded by Russians, was never bombed and nuked, the city your grandparents lived was not under 900-day siege with millions of people starved to death and freezing, your friends or children were not blown up into pieces at airports or in their homes just recently, etc, etc. Once it happens, then we talk. If defending yourself and your children is considered a "threat", we know who the aggressor is. Back off, and you will not feel threatened.
samghjk, are you a citizen of Japan?
Well to be honest your people haven’t been a threat to anything for a few thousand years. Your argument is nonsense sir. If a country doesn’t like the foreign military presence kick it out. Most Americans would be thrilled to death with that.
"If a country doesn’t like the foreign military presence kick it out."
You seem to have missed the point. And while tough sounding it is a naive statement . Clearly you have never lived under occupation. What do you think those US military bases are for? To protect the local villagers from the evil Soviets / Russkies? No, they are there to control the countries they occupy, to deal with any attempt to kick them out, to "secure" America's occupation. They are enforcers.
The citizens of both USA and Europe want this folly to end.
Thank you for pointing out that Greece has not threatened anyone - since 1922 actually. This is true. Despite this the USA and the Brits sought fit to impose 4 years of drummed up "civil war" (think Syria, Libya etc) on Greece from 1944-49 ie with WW2 nine continuous years of war; followed by the Colonels Military Regime 1967-74 and the division of Cyprus; and most recently by the imposed financial crisis from 2010 to the present. A lot of pain for a country that threatened no one.
Perhaps you can explain it?
I think we are in agreement. So what was wrong with my statement “kick them out”? I’d say the majority of American citizens don’t want us there. Most of the military doesn’t want to be there. The host country’s don’t want us there. Through deductive reasoning why are we there? NWO/WEF et all is about the only reason left. I’m no longer even flying my American flag, and I lost more brothers in 24 years of service in the American army than I can remember at one time. I am not proud of my country anymore. That’s a very hard thing for a guy like me to say. My point is we all need to focus on who’s pulling the strings here.
We're in agreement alright. IMHO the US , like here, is also occupied territory under the notorious [essentially British] Divide and Rule. Like the Ukrainians your brothers were so much cannon fodder - that is the pity and the crime. Stay strong for your country which is badly in need of rescue.
That said, we're not at the point of 'kick them out' ie gratuitously precipitating war inside our borders or at the very least military intervention and coups / tightened grip. For now its a waiting game (lets keep breathing -) not unlike inside the US. The maniacs in Washington have ratcheted up the pain beyond 'too high' to 'existential' on both sides of the Atlantic, a huge gamble, a fantastic go-for-broke risk.....this is NOT an indicator of stength.
A lot of people may not want us to be there, but unfortunately the people with power want us to stay there. How can they be overruled?
You might have missed the stink raised when Trump decided to move troops from Germany to Poland. While perhaps applauded by the anti-US Germans not applauded by the German government at all.
" Despite this the USA and the Brits sought fit to impose 4 years of drummed up "civil war" (think Syria, Libya etc) on Greece from 1944-49..."
I'm not really a fan of NATO, either, but let's be fair: EAM-ELAS look to have been pretty home-grown to me. A lot of that conflict was driven by indigenous conflicts and resentments that had been growing for decades in Greece, and rapidly festered during NAzi occupation.
True enough, EAM (political civilian arm) - ELAS (military) were home grown, and yes there was infighting between them and right wing monarchist factions during WW2. This was a long running split from circa 1900 forward ie Republican Venizelists vs monarchists. BUT. The split was not so toxic or deep or culturally devisive -[what we see in USA now is a lot worse]- that civil war was any kind of outcome, certainly not after 5 years of war, the ruination of most of the country and the 2nd highest death toll after Russia (per % of population). Moreover throughout the war they were united in one goal, defeating nazi occupation.
In the absence of a national government and with a Nazi administrtion that had no on-the-ground knowledge, EAM took over civilian administrtion: food supplies, hospitals, infrastructure repair etc and the whole country and all political stripes were grateful to them for that. It was the events of the Dekemvriani in December 1944 set up by Churchill that turned the communists into a [British, not Greek] enemy that British troops started fighting.
FYI since you seem informed I recommend Mark Mazower's Hitler's Greece for the occupation, EAM-ELAS. And as Dimitris Psarros' great niece my remarks do not come from any sort of "red" corner.
American warmongers always need a boogeyman.
But they haven't the guts to face the real bogeyman, China.
Corrupt Biden regime and the corrupt Pentagon is in cahoots with the CCP.
Absolutely right, it's blindingly obvious - so the Republicans need to wake up.
"The fact is that there was never any threat from USSR and now Russia." - Obviously you might have missed the great missile standoff of the late 70's. The Russians deployed SS-20 and the US went to considerable effort and expense, including deployment of the GLCM to get those SS-20's removed from EU boundaries. A real fortune has been spent by the US to prop up NATO. Not the least was deployment of US nuclear weapons in Europe to ensure any tactical nuclear conflict would escalate - done at the request of the Europeans. The EU-US entanglements are purposeful and largely desired by Europe.
NATO fears came alive when Russia decided in invade Ukraine. That domino is all too real.
The 1970s nuclear escalation USA-USSR was a rerun of the previous decade's Cuban Missile Crisis. Most Americans are unaware that the USSR stationed nukes in Cuba not because they were Evil and Crazy but IN RESPONSE TO the US stationing nukes in Turkey.
The 1970s escalation was because the US stationed nukes in West Germany on USSR's border, and elsewhere in Europe - despite overwhelming European opposition.
Ask yourself: who was provoking whom?
Russia did not decide to invade Ukraine, it decided to interfere in the humanitarian disaster unleashed by NATO in Eastern Ukraine right next to its border in 2014 soon after Ukraine was invaded by NATO after exhausting every diplimatic method. It's a war deliberately provoked by NATO to justify its existence and luxury lifestyles of its employees. Russia gains absolutely nothing from it unless they just love to inflict self-harm
What else should the people of Donbass be doing facing the every day threat of being killed in their homes and burying their loved ones? They did the only thing they knew - ask a more powerful neighbor for help.
No I did not miss the nuclear escalation, as much the US responsibility as the USSR. What you missed or did not hear about (long controlled media-) was the overwhelming opposition to the US nukes inside Europe . There was no EU at that point (ie US appointed admin), it was - please note! - NATO that requested nukes. And just who IS in charge of NATO?
Europe pays no where close to the full cost of US occupation. Security of Europe/Greece costs way more than 4-5% of gdp.
America should not be anywhere besides USA. But to pretend the occupied countries don’t massively benefit financially is naive. How do you think Europe manages its aggressive social programs? It’s bc of the US military gift.
Cede some sovereignty and gain some social bennies. This has been the trade off. I think the actual people of both Europe and USA are done with this arrangement.
Not sure about Greece, but Germany failed to even pay 2% of gdp for defense. Which caused Trump to threaten to remove troops in 2020. Germany of course begged the US to stay since they benefit greatly from all the US military being stationed there.
Why would they pay for their own occupation?
"Why would they pay for their own occupation?"
Standard practice. All Nazi occupied states had the privilge of paying the occupiers expenses, for example.
Germany's status is a mystery. As with Japan, no peace treaty has been signed between Germany and the US since the war : technically they are stll at war. Both defeated powers continue to operate on the US-composed Basic Law handed to them post-war . Re-unification has not changed this : thus neither Germany nor Japan has its own sovereign constitution.
On the other hand the US appointed its defeated and still occupied enemy Germany as its number one power in Europe, essentially representing Europe in Washington... to the surprise and consternation of not only its former Allies : Germany was and is a power in Europe but by no means its cultural or civilisational heart. The USA then unilaterally granted the world's biggest (and still unsurpassed) debt cut for Germany on the 1953 London Conference - at the expense of its Allies and the rest of Europea. Moreover the remaining German debt was to be repaid at Germany's leisure, unlike the stringent repayment conditions for the rest. The US then invested heavily in Germany, bringing about the 2nd 'German Miracle' (Hitler's was the first).
Germany's Deutschemark eventually became the euro, administered by the Bundesbank (ie BB is in charge of every Eurozone country's budget). While the euro strongly favoured Germany it has been disatrous for the rest, allowing Germany to act as a mercantilist power inside Europe, showing no mercy or contrition towards the inevitably bankrupted PIIGS, and certainly no debt cuts, Mein Gott!
The trade off appears to have been purely economic, while occupied Germny remains US forward base and HQ.
Because they don’t have to pay so much for defense. It’s symbiotic, but Germany isn’t the victim here. I hope they resist giving the tanks to the Ukraine, however they’re as complicit in this as anyone. They’re in the top 5 economies in the world. If the German government didn’t want the US military there they wouldn’t be there. France kicked the US out fairly quickly after WWII. Germany could do that whenever they wanted. So why don’t they?
I don't think they could. Germany was/is a defeated enemy, and had no rights to much of anything except for building cars.
A lot of Europeans knew Trump was right when he suggested that they begin defending themselves.
THURSDAY, 1-26 . . As of today, Germany has agreed to provide Leopards & will allow other countries to provide Leopards (about 20 countries have purchased Leopards) - supposedly because the U.S. has agreed to provide about 30 tanks
Aren't BOTH squeezes US-made? US could not tolerate Russia's competition in both the weapon sales and energy market, and, alas, it cannot compete on fair terms any more.
A superior turn of phrase. I commend you!
American exceptionalism will be the death of Europe. Whether you like it or not. For this reason, the individual European countries need to shed the EU cloak and stand tall both individually and together in whatever form actually benefits each nation. I might suggest looking to Hungary for guidance. Otherwise, you will be sucked into the political, cultural and economic mire that has become the collective "West". Not so good. Pray, plan, prepare and RESIST.
> "individual European countries need to shed the EU cloak and stand tall both individually and together in whatever form actually benefits each nation"
Exactly my thoughts. I'm really tired of paying for everyone else's military defense. Let Europe cover that themselves.
the global american empire actively seeks to involve itself in the defence of Europe and is right now aiming to undermine native european defence industries. it's a deliberate strategy.
The entire Ukraine war was engineered by the US military-industrial complex and the money skimmers from both Parties to make donors & politicians even richer. Putin would not have invaded had the US not pushed for Ukraine NATO membership. As another commenter noted, Europe hated Trump; the war & US defense contractors becoming billionaires in Europe’s back would not have happened had the ‘20 US election not been stolen. Oops, bad call EU Socialists. As they say in Poland, toughski shitski.
Another Polish saying: "Not my circus. Not my monkey."
Eugyppus you are very naive. The US has never given a fig about defending Europe, it was all abot OCCUPYING Europe. If US cared about Europe they would not have made us Ground Zero of US-USSR nuclear war.
Never given a fig? How old are you?
Oh, come on. The US soldiers went into Europe, fought and died to save you from the Nazi troops of Hitler, and the US taxpayers paid and paid to help rebuild your ravaged countries. And saying US made Europe Ground Zero of the US-USSR nuclear war is rewriting history. US troops stayed and US taxpayers built bases like Ramstein Air Base because Germany split into GDR (allied with the USSR, part of the Eastern Block in the Cold War) and the FDR. After WWII, the US and UK airlifted supplies to blockaded Berlin for approx. 18 months to save Germans from starvation and deprivation. So, the battle lines were set in Europe long before your saying the US made Europe Ground Zero.
Starting in 1947, the Marshall Plan rebuilt Europe. Back then, the USA was powerful and rich. Now it has grown to be an over-extended empire that relies on mercenaries to spread its domination of the planet. Things will not end well. There are many similarities between Caligula and the Biden Crime Syndicate.
Pedo Biden Crime Syndicate
I gather you learned history in the United States and probably live there.
Certainly US participated late in the war and many bravely died, that is undisputed. You entered the war around the time the Soviets began to beat the Germans, turning the tide of the war.
My country Greece and neighbour Serbia were under Nazi occupation, both countries tying them down in partisan war since there were no armies to help us. This delayed Germany in its assault against Russia: the Nazis withdrew. No one liberated us. No American came to Greece until 1945 when they imposed a totally unnecessary "civil war" until 1949 fighting local communists. This was the first act of the Cold War. Unnecessary because the division of Europe and %s had been decided between FDR, Churchill and Stlin at tehran and Yalta - there was no "communist threat" in Greece and Stalin did not come to the Greek communists aid. But US could try out the first use of napalm and UK the first military jets.
US taxpayers did indeed build the US bases : this was for the occupation of Europe. US taxpayers did NOT pay to rebuild Europe : the Marshall Plan was a loan scheme for those who could afford it that benefitted US corporations only. Few countries could afford it, or afford much. This was on top of the Lend Lease program, another loan scheme with interest that took on average 50 years to pay off. USA benefitted mightily out of the war both financially and geopolitically.
The new division of Europe was announced by Churchill in Missouri in 1944 - the "Iron Curtain". The USSR had not threatened the West but found itself the enemy. Wake up please, war is a racket and the victor populations are told a pack of lies to feel good. I'd think you'd have noticed that after the ridiculous excuses and outright lies made to justify Iraq 1 and 2, Afghanistan, Libya, Yugoslavia, Somalia, Syria...Korea, Vietnam - all wars of choice.
So the USSR was just like Turkey. They occupied large parts of Europe, including Greece, to protect them from corrupt and rapacious European empires. They kept them from being exploited while helping them accept the true (and more just) faith of Islam.
Maybe you should talk to the people of eastern Europe who spent almost 50 years under USSR occupation before you talk about "ridiculous excuses and outright lies". The Iron Curtain was there to keep the occupied people of Eastern Europe from leaving, not the "occupied" people of Western Europe from entering their "worker's paradise". Be thankful your country was not in the Soviet Zone.
This is a long and convoluted historical discussion about people that had a variety of different goals, ideas, and attitudes, some which were thoughtful and moral, most which were wrong and mostly politically motivated by greed and for power control. We are still learning the truth about the people involved and the large and small issues involve in the various negotiations. There were people who wanted to continue the war and defeat the Russians in order to defeat Communism but the US and Britain did not want to draw out the war, as they knew their citizens would not agree to more deaths, especially against a country that had been their "ally", that was so large, and with the need to still defeat Japan. Churchill and Roosevelt felt it best to divide the areas instead of fight over the issue of Communism, a disaster for the people whose lives they were deciding, and a wrong decision in moral terms. They should have listened to the military people who stressed the need to fight for freedom for all people, but they were weak.
Military bases have remained because governments have asked for them to protect against a variety of political moves over the years. Some are legitimate threats as they were during the Cold War. Some are due to political negotiations that go on constantly behind closed doors, dealings we citizens never hear about, but are give and take, the US gets to keep a base and that country gets funding for rebuilding their infrastructure, or money to fund their debt, or disaster funding. Governments exchange favors all the time. The bases allow the US closer access to Russia, China, and other enemy countries for espionage missions and protection of ambassadors (ha!).
And it's about money. Oil, drugs, human trafficking, guns. We, the citizens, in the US are learning. Politicians aren't who they were pre-WWII, people who generally believed in the good of the country and people. They aren't of the type of Washington, Jefferson, Adams wanting a country that is for freedom and independence, for people who live for personal responsibility and equal justice. Politicians are more often involved with big business and attempting to manipulate laws in order to influence stocks and make financial gains, whether that means creating wars, the need for military weapons, spurring drug trade, advancing the need for more oil or less to drive up prices, limit the use of fossil fuels to push climate change to make financial gain off green/renewable energy.
In the end it seems we all, citizens, are on the losing end. As a US citizen, I'm coming to terms with the fact that people I thought were the "good guys" in my government, the "side" I thought was the "better side" was in fact lying just as much as the other side. That they've all been just as evil, crooked, self-serving, wrong. The last few years have been very eye-opening, but depressing, and has made me really angry. It's also made me really concerned, and feel very helpless. I've always been taught that to change things we vote, vote new people into office to change things. But the more I vote, the more the wrong people are in office. The last few elections all I see are sorry-assed people put up for choices when we have 300+million people to choose from. Where are the ones who have valor, honor, respectability, class, decorum, military service, maturity, knowledge and belief of our Constitution & Declaration, national pride, patriotism, confidence, duty, honesty? I left the political party I had been a member of for over 35 years and became independent and will never again vote for the "lesser of the evils" even if the evil one wins. And I understand now that I must put my trust in God because our only hope is in His decision as to whether or not our country keeps its freedom. There may be people who feel a war is needed to regain our government, although I hope that we can still return to our Constitutional values through the process contained in it. I believe in following the legal process.
If and when we do I agree that the US should only have bases in countries where we have a legit reason for them, because we've been asked for protection from invading countries, and then we return to the US. We're not the country we were before WWII and I doubt we ever will be. That's difficult to wrap my (our) minds around. It was a place and thought of honor, we wanted to be able to honestly help, aid, give, assist others who needed us in a giving and protective manner. It wasn't to feel or be arrogant, elitist, snobby, it was because I (we) (felt) so fortunate to have what we did, peace, calm, more after the war and we wanted to share that with everyone who had been hurt, damaged, left with so little. I don't know how to explain it, I know it mattered to me, I cared and still care, and want people to know that even now I hurt for the people who are hurt, destroyed, damaged, terrorized by war and terrorized by war and evil people. I know it may/will come here eventually, but until it does I still want to assist those affected by the harm of war.
I might suggest a reading of The Liberation Trilogy by Atkinson that tracks the US involvement in WWII. The Marshall plan was a $12B outlay by the US (worth $140B 2022) and a joint re-industrialization of the EU. Those $12B were NOT loans, no repayment has ever been made. It did benefit US and EU corporations. The USSR became an enemy after it broke certain promises over countries then occupied by Russia post war. The hidden pact betwenn Stalin and FDR was broken but FDR did ensure the UK Empire was ended, a goal of FDR.
Your history is sprinkle with half-truths.
You are right on both counts: I learned history in the USA and I live there. Thank you for the education.
US rebuilt Europe with money that flowed to US from Europe as a result of the war. It was so successful, that US is clearly re-engineering that type of scenario.
I do not pretend to be a military or political strategist; but it strikes me that Europe has trusted and depended on the US for so long that the EU has neglected to protect itself from Biden's Amerika. Once the continent has been bankrupted and ruined, it will be easy pickings for the Nazis that currently rule both the USA and Ukraine.
But it was Merkel when put Germany in this spot. Yes, The US is absolutely awful with the CIa involvement and the pathetic proxy plays with the undersea oil footsie battles, but ultimately the Germans need to reflect on the type of leadership they need to get out of these scenarios.
I wholeheartedly agree. Let's see if a German politician holding those views can make it past the party gatekeepers, and if he does, will election rules suddenly be changed to allow mail-in ballots and electronic vote tabulation?
Whether or not that is their aim, it is doomed to failure. The European defence industry isn't going away, it is merely shifting to countries that take defence seriously.
The main beneficiaries will be Poland, Turkey, Sweden and when the war is over, Ukraine.
The GAE actively seeking to involve itself in the defense of the EU is like big pharma actively seeking to involve itself in the fight against covid. They not only created the problem, but every solution they impose makes the situation worse.
I would hope Germany's European allies would at least notice that the German tanks are cooler and more badass than the American tanks.
Europe has undermined its own defense industries, as you yourself pointed out.
because of American security guarantees, and because of manoeuvres and relentless pressure to invest in American arms and outsource defence to the Americans. I won't deny that European nations should spend more on their own defence, but this world is also a deliberate creation of American foreign policy.
Do you mean, essentially, that the US pokes the bear, runs away, and then happily sells bear cages to everyone else?
I don't see how American industry can even keep up with arms production.
Corrupt Biden and those idiots in the Pentagon left billions of $$$ of equipment in their surrender in Afghanistan.
Now US is shipping billions more to Ukraine.
this means more backlog orders on the books. Stock goes up.
Biden probably left the Afghanistan stuff on purpose with a kickback from China, who probably swung by to pick up a lot of stuff.
Features, not bugs. If you sell widgets, you need demand for widgets or your stock price goes down. What better way to pump up demand than to have a large percentage of the existing inventory suddenly get "lost"?
American industry will easily (and gladly) ramp up arms production if there's a big war - just give them a couple of years. The weapons and equipment abandoned in Afghanistan were mostly worn and/or obsolete items not worth shipping back - not as big a deal as some in the media were suggesting. That stuff would have only rotted away in storage. Such things are always left behind during a retreat or an evacuation. The upside is that the Taliban will require spares if they want to keep it operating.
Agreed that the US foreign policy is abominable, but Germany basically leads the EU bloc and their strategy has been one of taking “freebies with strings” and milquetoast foreign policy. At least the Americans here can freely admit to the self loathing of the CIA maneuvers and money laundering taking place abroad, but we actively seek to remedy this by voting different people in with the hope of making change. I only see the vast majority of Germans sadly not reflecting on anything like this, just doing what they are told. Too few free thinkers like you Eugyppius, how can you change that?
Exactly, Germany needs to leave the EU- it would be the perfect way to disintegrate the whole EU full of bloated bureaucracy and the Build Back Crappier WEF team. Germany needs a leader with a backbone who isn’t afraid of being proud of being German and start paying back into the NATO army pool. Germany is in this weak position after allowing Merkel to neuter them and get sandwiched between her friend Russia (who she inherently relates to) and letting the US pick up the NATO bill to her detriment. They also have to stop unfettered immigration (like in the US- this is another WEF globalist style plan to keep people under control and “cheap”, which, of course, they aren’t really).
I thought Germany ran the EU.
Please look anywhere but Hungary.
Of course it is about hurting Germany, and Europe in general. As a UK resident I am ashamed of the position our government has taken in support of the USA and against our natural allies in Europe and across the world. Nothing good will come of supporting the rise of neo-Nazis in our own backyard.
Wait a minute.... the EU has a post-Brexit population of what... 300Million? And an [almost] free economy to match. To paint the EU as a victim is a real stretch.
The UK voted to leave the EU (economic union) by referendum. This in 2020 when the favorite sport of UK citizens was to absolutely hate the nasty US president, and by extension all things American. I think because the Island Nation is loved by its people. (They cohabited with the Continent, but never really committed... kept the Queen on their currency.)
Not buying it. I've lived in Germany as a US expat. Got 70+ entry stamps on my dusty passports. Great people. No knowledge of their own history. Patriotism is abhorred. Complacent about their own security. German flag sales absolutely suck. All international relations are measured in economic terms IMO. The Germans and all EU nations have autonomy and make their choices.
How can you believe Germany has autonomy and can make its own choices after the US blew up Nordstream 2? Germany is a vassal of the Globalist American Empire.
I admit I am astounded how the NS2 event has been memory-holed. But I don't see it as proof GDR is a vassal state. I don't see subservience reflected in the attitudes of my German friends. I have no idea what's going on with NS2.
The Globalist American Empire? I see them as competing, but currently allied "empires", along with China as a third power. In fourth place would be a popular nationalist/isolationist movement within the United States, as evidenced by Donald Trump's breakthrough victory in 2016. Germany may have some nascent nationalism as well, but perhaps fear of another Hitler still casts a long shadow.
The US occupation in 1945 and the Marshall Plan were also heavily laden with corruption and theft, at first by individuals and soon after by US corporations. Foreign aid and military aid are little more than racketeering.
The US, British, French and Soviet occupation. Adenauer's Wirtshaftwunder, economic miracle, that arose from the ashes of West Germany was enabled by the Marshall plan. Of course there was corruption. But the fact remains.
Agreed. Perhaps I was a bit harsh. The Marshall Plan was worlds above Nazi and Soviet occupations.
A small correction - the UK vote to leave the EU (current population 447Million) was June 2016, but Trump wasn't elected until November 2016, so claiming that Brits "favorite sport" was hating him and "all things American by extension" was certainly not founded at that time. However, he certainly did become unpopular later thanks to a large extent by the invariably negative way he was lampooned by the MSM, which continues to this day.
I stand corrected. The vote was 2016, the exit finalized in 2020.
BBC: The UK voted to leave the EU in 2016 and officially left the trading bloc - its nearest and biggest trading partner - on 31 January 2020.
As an American I am appalled by what is happening in Ukraine and our blackmail in Europe.
But let's not forget that WW1 is the root cause of all that has unfolded over the last century.
WW1 was an unjust war. Might add , it started in Europe with no real tangible involvement from the US in the beginning.
If it wouldn't have been for the crushing reparations, etc. put on the German people after WW1 then we would not have had to save your asses in WW2 from being a Nazi.
It is how America went from a pacifist nation to a warmongering imperialism
Never forget that.
I don't think the Americans saved Europe from being Nazi. It was the Red Army, the Soviets. Americans were generous to Europe once they entered the war and the British, had to pay back the loans. I think your connecting the Ukraine war and WW1 is a bit of a stretch. Regards from New Zealand. How pleased my parents were when the Americans took on the Japanese!
I suspect one US General Patton would beg to differ about the Red army as it entered Germany, but no matter. Had the US not provided the Reds with the tools of war, the Reds could not have afforded the huge losses sustained in pushing Germans out.
The connection between WWI is appeasement by the UK not standing up for Europe; same for the Bolsheviks taking over Russia and then the same for WWII. Taking a stand for Ukraine rather than another Minsk is avoidind WWIII.
Taking a stand for nazi killing its own citizens because they speak a different language instead of condemning them is fuelling the war, not stopping it.
really? because the only nations that didn't lay down were the Brits.
You're lucky you're on an island. Say hello to Horseface and put your mask back on.
Hello Ryan, I don't understand your dismissal of my comment as its pretty orthodox conclusion of historians that the Red Army defeated the Germans and Eisenhower himslef allowed them the honour of entering Berlin first. For your information I've never worn a mask. AS you have obviously missed the news Ardern has resigned but if you wish to greet her she still sits in Parliament and you could send her a message yourself @parliament.nz. And as a hint kindly meant it would be "lie" not "lay" intransitive verb not trransitive.
Thanks for the grammar lesson. Log in the eye. Look how you spelled your last word. Give me a break. A pedantic always reveals themselves.
You would be speaking Japanese and Europe would be speaking German if it were not for the US. Not just because 450k Americans died on the soil of other countries, but because of our production capability.
That was for your FREEDOM. Not ours. Good luck to Hitler trying to invade the US.
Do you think Eisenhower needed to honor anything, given we had the a-bomb?
Wasnt't it Wall st bankers funding Hitler's adventure to conquer USSR? Things didn't go according to plan back then, so now we see the replay with Zelensky / Ukraine
So why are the doing it? Why are they going along with such a self-destructive US GAE-drive when it so harms their own self-interest? Why is Finland (which has long recognized the importance of not antagonizing Russia) now clamoring to join NATO? It can't just be that ditzy party broad who supposedly runs the place is a secret Neocon American stooge.
The EU must see the US GAE goals as aligning with its own as there is no other reasonable explanation. Remember the massive 1980's protests against the Reagan-Thatcher installation of nuclear-armed missiles in Europe? Europeans knew that would make them a first-strike target and probably was not in their own best interests. Why isn't there a hint of that defiance now?
I'm no fan of the GAE but there's something bigger going on here beyond standard yankee-doodle imperialism.
Good questions all.
Starting with Finland, the "leader" made this decision, refusing a referendum despite popular outcry. No democracy there.
Meanwhile the decision to support US sanctions was made unilaterally by the EU, an unelected body run by Washington, its personnel appointed by Washington
.
You may have noticed the general low quality of European leaders : suffice to say that no leader gets through without the approval and active support of the local US embassies, who also invent parties when necessary, POTAMI in Greece is an example. Naturally they do not seek intelligent, tough minded patriots.
Thus the puppets obediently fall in to line if / when their approval is sought.
Both Erdogan and Orban were originally American protogees. But when crisis hit they both turned out to be patriots. Thus their vilification.
In other words there is literally no democracy in Europe ; the citizens of Europe have no say in the "decisions" made above their heads. Pretty much the same as in USA.
If you want an in depth discussion about this, I highly recommend The Duran, available on Rumble as well as several other sites (including You Tube, if you still go there). Alexander Mercouris and Alex Christophorus, the two commentators also have individual channels. There is also The New Atlas with Brian Berlettic who does a thrice weekly analysis of the military situation with a heavy emphasis on military hardware. Just like with covid and the vaccines, this story is not covered at all in the MSM and there is a lot to know. Most of what you read or see on TV is lies.
The true intent is two-fold. This enriches the corporate oligarchs while simultaneously placing immense burden on the working class. The people pay ever-increasing taxes and suffer infinite inflation while some others are maimed and wounded in the manufactured physical conflict. Absurdly evil.
It's ALL about draining resources and nothing to do with security or safety or sovereignty.
Germany is the leading economic and political power within the EU. As long as the Germans are unwilling to stand up for themselves, as long as they allow themselves to be humiliated, Europe will stay demoralized.
"The Germans are unwilling and incapable of retaliating in either action or words [mainly to NS2]. That’s the state of the leading economic and political power in Europe at this point. Yet Germany is still willing and capable of bossing the rest of Europe around; so in effect we’re lead by cowards."
The benchmark of Berlin's cuckery is the tone of Warsaw: the more outrageous the Poles are when it comes to addressing Germany, the greater Berlin's submission. This can't persist forever: Germany is the greatest elephant on the continent, economically. This hasn't changed by a war in Slavistan, it's the result of 70 years of buildup, it won't change overnight.
You have got to laugh! It really is all about the money.
The USA is totally captured by its global industrialised warfare industry.
They've transferred everything else to China. - what else have they got left. The corporations make the arms and buy the politicians and the defence spending increases every year. Any country that becomes part of NATO needs huge military upgrades, and if business slacks off, well they just start a war.
The UK can't even control its own nuclear weapons without US say so, and we spend millions on F35 fighters, which are always breaking down - the same ones Canada is just about to purchase.
War is good for business and the US are the masters of manipulation. Unfortunately it all comes at a cost which may ultimately destroy them as well as their national debt hits 30 trillion dollars.
Meanwhile corporations like Monsanto are standing by to reconstruct Ukraine once the fighting is over - to introduce GM crops and pesticides to poison us all.
But hey, it's not personal, it's just business.
oh, don't forget the Pharma. We got vaccines for you
The Americans really have dropped their Nice Guy persona haven't they? They really are being exposed as the Bad Guys they probably always were in the post war world. Scary. Growing up during the Cold War I was always more afraid of the Americans, with their good teeth and happy families and Coca Cola, stomping across the world pretending they cared. My father (a completely different generation) was scared of both the Reds and the Yanks. The Reds now look like the guys who are trying to retaliate after years of being pushed into a corner by arrogant old Uncle Sam.
The covid genocide is run by the US DoD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=i9cmYNRgXXg&feature=emb_title
Employing the openly terrorist tactics with zero care for optics - since they are finding out they can get away with anything with no one having the power to stop them, why would they care what the unwashed masses think?
Genuine question: I appreciate that much of this donation of kit is political rather than military but how, exactly, do the West think the Ukes will operate these vehicles?
They require a serious logistics chain just for the ammunition, never mind repairs. What also of training?? That takes considerable time and practice and the Russians have been learning *very* quickly.
The Ukrainians are already operating a diverse fleet of Western Kit - most of which is designed to be easier to operate than Soviet weaponry. This racist nonsense about ignorant Holhols being too stupid to comprehend the wonders of the Western tech is one of the silliest yet most pernicious myths of the past year.
Cool story bro: that's not what I said. The war is barely a year old and training normally takes weeks and months. A certain amount can be trimmed but only so much.
Are you sure Western kit is easier to operate? If I remember correctly Russian doctrine is for cheap, easy-to-manufacture and simple-to-operate equipment e.g. the AK-47.
Also, what of my point about logistics?
Certainly, modern Western artillery such as the Caesar, Pzh-2000 etc is much easier to use - aiming is pretty much entirely computerised. Likewise Soviet Anti-air is less computerised and requires more training to use effectively.
And if you're a trained tank driver, switching from a T72 to a Leopard or Abrams is going to be a piece of piss - the principles are the same. Nobody goes for driving lessons when they trade their Mercedes in for a Hyundai.
As for logistics - Western logsstics systems are much more standardised and mechanised than Russian ones logistics. Check out how a HIMARS is reloaded compared to Soviet MLRS.
I don't know why everyone goes on about supply-chain logistics anyways. Consider what Amazon ships every day, or any large courier such as DHL or UPS, or large supermarket chains. These are vastly more complex supply chains than what a military faces.
I'll have to take your first point on faith. I would be surprised if repairs and other maintenance were as simple as operation however.
Neither Amazon nor DHL have to operate under fire. If these things were so simple then Afghanistan/Iraq would not have needed such colossal logistics operations, but they did.
The difficulties of maintenance and repair, like the issue of training is another grossly inflated myth. A diesel engine is a diesel engine whether Russian or German, a gas turbine is a gas turbine, whether in an Abrams or a T80. Hydraulic systems all work on the same principle no matter what language the designers, builders, and maintainers speak. And it's worth remembering that kit like the Leopard, Abrams, Bradley, and Marder are relatively old designs dating back to the 70s and 80s - a lot of the technogy isn't exactly cutting edge.
In any event, a lot of the heavy maintenance and repair won't even be done in Ukraine but in NATO countries. This is already the case with NATO supplied artillery systems. Pzh 2000, Krabs etc are being sent back to NATO countries for barrel refurbishment and other heavy maintenance before being returned to Ukrains.
Afghanistan was a logistics problem because of lack of transportation infrastructure. This is not a problem with Ukraine which has a large and efficient rail network and a highway network as well.
And the point about Amazon et al still stands. Enemy fire only becomes an issue the last few miles before the front line, particularly in this war where the Russians are seriously lacking in up-to-date intelligence.
How many Ukrainians are capable of that maintenance and at what rate are they being killed or injured? Are there enough to carry out the volume necessary?
Ukraine is a large country and sending everything to us to fix takes time and lengthens chains that can be damaged or delayed by enemy action or weather amongst other things.
Please feel free to bookmark this conversation and return to it later. I think that the new armour will be ground into the mud and overall be ineffective, contrary to some Grand Poobah in the Daily Mail today who thinks that this will turn the tide. They will keep asking for more and more kit which won't win the war and we will be pushed into providing it by the Americans.
I do remember a plane crash in Russia because the pilots were used to fly soviet-made planes but their airline bought a Boeing or Airbus where control systems had a different logic that the pilots were not used to (not to mention two MAX crashes). Why would it be any different with weapons?
The German's fate is in the German's hands. If they want us out all they have to do is tell us to leave and get serious about defending themselves (to include things like not letting us do silly illegal things like blowing up pipelines.) I would like nothing better than to close down all those Europeean resort bases we have like Ramstein, bring back our people and use the money on the Navy. The question is: How will the other Europeans react to the Germans getting serious about defending themselves? That is also in the hands of the Germans.
Amen! Well said.
The Americans are dangerous people to have as enemies but positively lethal to have as friends.
US = blowing the shit out the Middle East for the last 20 years.
Not to be defensive... but I'd argue that this is not "America" but rather a transnational elite. It's an empire without a metropole. The United States just happens to be the biggest asset in its portfolio.
agree. this certainly has nothing to do with the preferences and aspirations of ordinary americans, who also suffer greatly at the hands of the GAE
Yes, I am pleasantly surprised with Scholz.
It is hard to gauge him, he seemed to be without morals or a backbone, but hopefully he holds fast here. Macron seems to be on his side, that may help.
I could imagie that the US wants our defense industry contracts, but for Germany this is not such a crucial industry. The car industry is much more important.
If Europe is to even partially re-arm in preparation for another cold war-style international situation, defence industry could become a much bigger area than it is now.
I'd be glad to pay more for our own defence if it meant:
- no more globohomo rainbow flags
- no more mutilating kids
- no more Anglos speaking like the Kardashian sluts
- no more vile American film, television and music
- no more of your vile food
- no more pointless wars that damage us needlessly (Libya -> 3rd world immigrants)
Death to America!
I like all of your bullet points, but then you go and spoil it with your ending slogan. As a patriotic American who deeply loves his country, I want to be free of globohomo domination too!
Americans are in many ways the biggest victim of the GAE
Yes. It feels like I am living in enemy-occupied territory.
It would be interesting to see an honest poll among Americans (conservatives, especially) as to whose side they're on in this Ukraine-Russia tussle.
As long as "Neither* is one of the options...
Not wishing to exaggerate or sound overly dramatic, but in many ways I feel like I am living in an occupied country myself.
Yeah I'm only winding you up. Rishi Sunak has as much in common with real Brits as does Obama to real Yanks.
From what I’ve seen and read, America does not have a monopoly on Leftist, family-destroying social lunacy. Had Europe not bought into the “social liberal/fiscal conservative” unicorn decades ago, it wouldn’t be the weak post modern nanny state it is. The American UniParty in DC is truly evil I admit but Europe hates Trump as much as the US Socialists & testosterone-free Republican Party does. There were no new wars under Trump and when he insisted Europe pay more for its own defense, he was right & Europeans know it. If you take Daddy’s money, you play by Daddy’s rules. I’ll be more understanding of lectures by Europeans when the most popular baby name in London stops being Mohammed.
Truth is European citizens (UK doen't count) loved Trump , but the EU Kleptocracy is a Washington invention manned by brainless appointees who obediently hated Trump.
FYI, most of continental Europe is decidely un-Woke. And I haven't seen a single Ukrainian flag in Greece and Cyprus....
Me thinks much Bullshit is being spread here - is this not what Trump said to all meetings and speeches he gave?
Yet he was vilified endlessly still and he told everyone stand for yourselves, take your own nationalism.
How is America to supply so much of what you are suggesting in armaments? We are lead by a senile old man who cannot find his ass with both hands and proves his diaper changing ways daily.
He has completely sold his soul and country to China - and the people of the USA are more than willing to support the idea of the things you don’t
Want to have or see from the US but of course tell the ignorant masses of the US who fail to read or understand anything outside of where and when their next welfare check is coming.
Most of the people of the US are
still accepting the blather of WEF, the MSM of the US, WHO and all alphabet groups of the senile old man and his handlers so how on earth do you expect anything different?
seems to be China as everyone else seems to be absorbed by their largesse as well as allowing their unbound approach to buying everything else in the world.
Land, strategic supplies of minerals, political influence bought and paid for fomenting the unrestrained migrations to every country of not only their citizens but supporting those migrations around the world.
An awful lot of dust kicked up obscuring maybe the total picture?
You can find many different scenarios, pick one you like and go for it. At least it induces lots of wild ideas and keeps everyone navel gazing in their own scenario of choice.
The German media on Trump was something to behold - absolutely Orange man bad on steroids. All the things he listed there he can be free to hate but it’s also self-inflicted- especially as long as Germans love leaders like Merkel. A lot of navel gazing going on. The US populace and German populace actually suffer under many of the same issues, but I fear the German populace is less likely to resist.
We’d be happy to leave. However we don’t hold the monopoly in wacko leftist crap. Europe is full of militant Muslims from all over the globe. The emasculation of the western man surely took root in Europe. The combined military of all of Europe couldn’t touch the American military. And your politicians continue to suck at our teat. Perhaps you should do some house cleaning. And do us a favor, throw us out! The American people will only benefit from once again reflecting inward. We can do without the German vehicles. Nothing else over there will be missed much.
I'd gladly boot Sunak et al, no complaints at all!
I would put in a request for Cheetos, though.
I like the XL bacon cheese that Burger King do. I'll allow them one (1) episode of globohomo propaganda per year if we can keep those.
The USA could send theirs and let Germany keep theirs. But that is too easy and misses the purpose you suspect.
I don't agree at all. The M1A1 is an apex weapons system. It was precisely designed for this kind of conflict and is far superior to both the T72 and Leopard. The main issue with providing them to the Ukrainians is that they are very complicated and would take about a year of training to operate competently. The maintenance and supply chain are also complex and expensive. I don't really get this argument over battle tanks, since they are only effective as part of a combined arms effort. The Russians failure around Kiev illustrates that you can't just drive them in and hope everyone flees in fear, they have to be used in combination with infantry, artillery and airpower. I am not sure that the Ukrainians have the resources or training to use them effectively in combined arms tactics.
Perhaps had the many Ukrainians oligarchs - including the Uke Prez - not pillaged their own country, Ukraine would have an actual defense strategy & equipment against a hostile regime on its eastern border. This war is dictator vs dictator & even stupid American voters are starting to tire of it.
It's even easier than that. All they had to do was to stop bombing Donbass and threatening to nuke Russia. Russia had literally zero appetite for invading any part of Ukraine before 2014
It seems to me that this battlefield is not a classic tank warfare scenario of open fields and defined fronts. Perhaps tanks are not useful. Russian tanks don't seem to be very effective so far.
Agree. They would be far better served if Ukranian troops were supplied with lots of anti tank weapons. The geography is well suited for hit and run tank destruction with cheap (relatively) weapons.
I would have thought the terrain is full of open fields and tanks are suitable. Anti-tanks would be relevant in urban areas allowing close approaches
The US had their asses kicked in Afghanistan by a bunch of goat herders using low tech weapons.
Not at all. The US decided to leave. What is true is that much like Vietnam, if you do not use force, you cannot subdue the opposition. The Rules in Afghanistan crippled the use of force. Notice when Trump removed the rules on ISIS, the caliphate ended.
It took 20 years for the illegal American occupiers to leave a sovereign country.
Tanks are obsolete. Drones will destroy them
Soviet T80s, some of which are operated by Ukraine use a turbine engine. Abrams are operated and maintained by the likes of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Morocco.
Looks like you are indeed correct; Russian media is reporting today that the Biden Administration is strongly considering providing Abrams tanks to Ukraine. I do wonder how this will turn out.
Ummmm. You recall the Gulf war? That’s a ridiculous statement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting
I think I can confidently say that the US military has never been so perfectly ready for a war as it was desert storm. The military of today would be almost unrecognizable to someone who retires in the 1980s. We are a shell of our former selves. And I can’t believe that it’s by accident.
That’s a well stated argument sir. It would be silly to think that Iraq tank crews are anything like Russian crews. However it’s a wide held belief that the gulf war effectively ended the Cold War because the Russians and Chinese watched that go down. Like the never ending see saw of military advancements, the Russians started with cyber and the Chinese with super sonic missiles. I think the tank and the aircraft carrier may soon go the way of the battleship. It’s interesting that all this is happening at a time when america is fairly weak as a military. Internally and against some newer technology.
Is it just me, or does the entire tank debate sound contrived and ridiculous? When you see how easy it is to target and destroy tanks with precision missiles guided by drones with full spectrum vision they look like deathtraps on the modern battlefield. Like battleships became after aircraft carriers easily dispatched them from the sky. Tanks don't seem to me to be the threat they once were when facing an adversary who commands the sky. I'd love to learn why I'm wrong if I am.
I had the exact thought! Other than the artillery protection advantage tanks can’t really even hold ground. They don’t typically work well without infantry support.
Perhaps you are not aware that Ukraine is doing a decent job of dispatching many of those Russian/Iranian drones. Better air defenses would improve even that. Air defenses are keeping both sides from doing as much as they might like in the air.
I entertain that thought. But tanks are just too easily destroyed on the modern battlefield with relatively inexpensive munitions. Maybe it's a failure of my imagination, always possible.
But without air superiority tanks are tough to defend. I'm sure a war college graduate could educate me. But that would be totally reliant on accurate information on the ground. Which is hardly reliable.
The propaganda lies abound, cast doubt upon all information from those same sources. Are *these* leaders telling us their stories trustworthy in any sense of that word?
Living the daily lies we live with, have had our lives intruded upon so greatly based on lies these past three years, much longer if you've been payng attention. These sources trustworthy to you? Anyone?
Tanks just seem like really expensive sitting ducks.