NORD STREAM UPDATE: German media report that state investigators believe a six-person team, likely from Ukraine, planted the explosives at the beginning of September
NORD STREAM UPDATE: German media report that state investigators believe a six-person team, likely from Ukraine, planted the explosives at the beginning of September
The vague, anonymously sourced account emerges exactly a month after Seymour Hersh published his story on How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline
An amusing aspect of this latest twist, is that all the earliest reporting had German, Scandinavian officials saying that this could only have been done by a state actor. The pipes are 80 metres deep! Encased in concrete! This is not something just anybody with a yacht and explosives could pull off!
Now the official line is indeed that it was pulled off by some randos with a vanfull of explosives who rented a yacht.
If it doesn't have to make sense, couldn't they just blame the North Koreans or the Iranians or something?
This story is ridiculously stupid. Not sure why they are putting this out now and who they expect to believe it. The earlier comment that it had to be a state actor is completely true. You are just touching the surface about how hard this event was to pull off.
Offshore companies spend literally millions of dollars for underwater operations that would be much, much less risky to pull off than this feat. Why is no-one asking questions like where these ‘6 people on a yacht’ got the funding, equipment, training and most importantly the explosives to execute this operation, without leaving any trace besides ‘professionally forged passports’ and a ‘boat left in uncleaned conditions, in which explosive traces were found’. Again it’s beyond comical anyone would believe a story like that.
And about the passports, doesn’t anyone find it extremely unlikely the people who did this, would forge ‘Ukranian and Russian’ passports to use when ‘renting the yacht’? I’m not a career criminal but it seems to me forging a passport from pretty much any other country in the world except maybe North Korea would be a better idea? And it gets even weirder when the ‘intelligence’ points out that although the passports were forged, there are ‘definitely no British or American’ nationalities involved, yet they somehow know that the woman who was supposedly involved was ‘a doctor’. I mean who even comes up with a story like that?
Oh, it wasn’t so tough for Victoria Nuland and Joe Obiden though. When you have the goons, the naval expertise and the desire, you just have to be Clintonesque, and voila!
I’ve had a day or two to think about what I wrote off the cuff and do some better math. The scenario I painted is hopelessly underpowered for the problem of two pipelines. Thousands of personnel had to have been involved in this operation and all kinds of ships subs, aircraft, and satellites. I don’t know how NATO et. al. expected it to be a secret op and not get the blame. I feel so awful about it. 🙏🏻
It could be done with a smaller support group than that, but you are correct about oxygen tanks, equipment, medical team, explosives, etc., those are not going to fit on a little boat like that. And certainly not produce the size and scale of those explosives. But a single naval support ship could provide all that (which is why the exercise last summer is the suspect), so it wouldn't take an armada.
When I said thousands I am thinking of the extended logistics, ship resupply, ordnance release and transport, communications security, special equipment (signals secure transmitters and remote detonation equipment that still works after 3 months in 300 ft of water.)
Then there is keeping the various governments informed, and the creation of the official propaganda story. And there is the plan B contingency if something fails to work. Cleanup; do they require follow up missions to clean up loose ends? They are still cleaning up and propagandizing the JFK hit. How many centuries are they going to cover for this abomination?
But, if Ukraine was responsible then why is Germany supporting their war effort and housing so many refugees? Surely this claim would stoke the fires of resentment?
I doubt it will wash. The demo in Berlin two weeks ago was huge - despite the sleet and the cold. I think the tide is turning against support for this war.
Because both Biden and Nuland are the only people to date that have declared their intention to blow up the pipelines, and motive was not lacking, I am sticking with the Hersch story as the most credible.
Keep in mind that Russia had already turned off Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2 never was put into operation.
The sabotage didn't reduce Germany's access to Russia's natural gas supplies--Putin had already done that. All the sabotage did was prevent Putin from turning the pipelines back on.
well, a lone guy with a rental truck full of fertilizer blew up that building in oklahoma....and it only took a single bullet to kill the president and wound a bunch of people in dallas....
Yeah right. Now look up how Hillary’s records got destroyed just in time with OK. And the CIA was behind TX. Yes, we have believed their lies for many decades. No more.
We have been gaslit by lies and coverups for a long time. Julis Caesar was not the first counsel to be assassinated by the Roman Senate ... and the lies and wars continue.
Read some embarrassing comments on Zeit online about how in fact it's still more likely the russians did it. I'm looking forward to the many desperate narrative twists we will witness in the future.
Why would the russians do it? All they'd need to do is claim some intractable maintenance issue on their end requiring a shutdown for some undetermined length of time, then just shut up.
I was washing my hands this morning and the bathroom sink tap was running. So I went to my toolshed, took out a lump hammer, and smashed the mains water pipe leading into the house.
Indeed. Those weird comments mostly propagate 4D chess-like explanations of how Russia did it and laid a false trail to Ukraine to disrupt the relations between Ukr and Germany.
No scuba company on the planet trains people to dive below 164 feet (50 meters). Very few humans on the planet, maybe a couple thousand in total, can go beneath 200 feet. It’s probably possible to identify all except those actively employed by the handful of militaries, not Ukraine’s, that can dive that deep and plant high powered explosives to remote detonate underwater.
The idea a band of random Ukrainians could muster the experience, materials, and ability to explode an undersea pipeline 265 feet down is absurd. A good investigative reporting company would realize it’s not a huge task to contact every non-military person on the planet capable of dives at that depth. Anyone buying this baloney is an idiot. An advanced military did this and it wasn’t Russia. It was most likely highly trained US military divers.
It was Gilligan and The Skipper who were the divers. The Professor was the mastermind. Ginger was the hot woman who distracted all the people from noticing the Millionaire and his Wife loading all the C4 onboard.
Limpet mines or whatever the current mil designation is nowadays. They were not typically remote detonated in history. That would have required the super secret cracker jack box long wave decoder kit.
Not a common part and the expertise to set it up on the sea bed is very specialized training.
I think that's where we are today. The people writing this stuff are literally trolling and under no obligation to make it believable to the mildly-intelligent.
All the best lies contain some truths - just not the whole truth and nothing but the truth - so it could well be a yacht or some ‘pro-Ukrainian’ group, but that doesn’t mean the US wasn’t running the operation and giving cash/material support. (Yacht - Aristotle Onassis had a private ‘yacht’, it was a converted former warship.)
While not just anybody with a yacht and some C4 could carry out this sabotage, the notion that a state actor had to be the culprit was never exactly logical. Given the number of private military companies out there, as well as the number of diving and undersea construction companies just in Norway and Denmark alone, it is almost certain the relevant skill sets can be found in the private sector. Indeed, the sketchiest part of Hersh's narrative is the use of active duty USN divers--surely the CIA has off the book assets that could carry this out while maintaining plausible deniability.
It just has to make enough sense not to be completely impossible.
This is why Hersh's lack of any solid physical evidence is so important. No matter how credible Hersh's narrative appears, no matter how likely it is to be true, without the smoking gun it's a fairly simple media exercise to plant competing narratives and bury the whole story in a swamp of contradictions.
These stories aren't going to shift public opinion, but that is not really necessary. Chaos, confusion, and competing narratives are the essence of "plausible deniability."
Regular USN divers means regular USN chain of command--which means a potential paper trail. Navy archives still have a record of virtually every order given to ship commanders in the Pacific during WW2; imagine the risk of having a written copy of the orders needed to deploy USN divers to pay Nord Stream 1 and 2 multiple visits floating around on the Pentagon servers.
Not the sort of thing you want to risk with a covert operation such as this.
You want no traceable evidence leading back to Washington, or Brussels, or Berlin--and preferably not even to Kyiv.
It's very convenient to say that there were Navy divers in BALTOPS 2022--but that does not amount to proof that those divers were, in fact, used in that way.
As for the Sea Power article, it's a general paean to the technological and innovative prowess of the United States Navy. It doesn't have any evidentiary weight in establishing that USN divers were used to plant explosive charges on the Nord Stream pipelines.
Always remember that "plausible deniability" does not mean making people believe you didn't do something. It means being able to get away with saying "prove it" to any accusation that might be leveled. Plausible deniability in diplomatic circles is a rough equivalent to reasonable doubt in criminal defense.
For all of Russia's protestations about the Nord Stream sabotage, at present they are not prepared to challenge these corporate media narratives. If the US Navy blew up the Nord Stream pipelines, that arguably is an act of war by the US against Russia, which means Putin would eventually be compelled to respond as if the US had declared war on Russia. So far, Putin has not done so--and the likelihood that he will diminishes with each passing day and week.
Right now, Putin firmly believes the US did in fact blow up Nord Stream 1 and 2 (and Putin is far from alone in this belief), which is to say the US committed an act of aggression against Russia, yet Putin is willing to let this act of war pass by without some retaliation at the very least in response. That's the power of plausible deniability.
"Regular USN divers means regular USN chain of command--which means a potential paper trail."
Unless the divers were simply taken "off the books", even if for only a few days.
There's certainly precedent. See, Claire Chennault and his "Flying Tigers". See, Francis Gary Powers, whose very existence was vehemently denied until the Soviets presented the picture of him standing next to the wrecked fuselage of his U-2.
The question that the Russians asked then, "Who else could have possibly put someone in a plane up in the highest reaches of the sky except the US?" could easily be directed to us today. ("Who else could have possibly prepared ordinance around a pipeline at the bottom of the ocean to detonate at will?")
I think the US is in a very desperate situation with regard to Russia and it wouldn't hesitate to push the envelope with a stunt as bold as an act of war against that country; any concerns over paperwork would be near the very bottom of a long list of items to fuss over.
Jeez. Do some research on how a hard hat dive work. Or better yet, ask a commercial diver. Can't hide a supplied air operation, and salvage guys aren't operating in stealth. Stop watching cartoons and do some real thinking. DUH
Claire Chennault retired from the US Army in 1937, and was not returned to active duty status until 1942. He became Chiang Kai-Shek's aviation adviser shortly before the start of the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937, and did not form the American Volunteer Group (the "Flying Tigers") until 1941.
That's not a precedent for taking military personnel "off the books" and then later moving them back on the books. Having a team of divers "resign" from the Navy and then returning them to active duty status even six months later would be about as dead a giveaway as could be imagined.
Fun fact: Claire Chennault resigned again from the US Military in 1945, and went on to found Civil Air Transport, which later became the CIA's "Air America" operation.
Francis Gary Powers was discharged from the Air Force in 1956 when he went to work for the CIA in the U2 program--four years before he was shot down over Soviet Russia. Again, not the same thing as moving a team of divers off the active duty roster for a brief interval for a covert op and then returning them to active service later, as Powers' separation from active duty US military was a one-way transfer years before he was shot down.
Would the US government be so bold as to blow up Nord Stream? Yes.
Would the planners of such a covert op be particularly concerned that nothing about it could trace back to the US government? Yes.
Are there divers with the technical skills to operate at the depth of the Nord Stream pipelines NOT associated with any nation's military? Yes. The oil and gas industry relies on them every single day.
Now, would Ukraine have the resources to recruit such individuals for a covert op in the Baltic? Debatable, but probably not.
However, it is the possibilities these realities engender that creates "plausible deniability." As long as Russia does not obtain actual "smoking gun" evidence showing how the US orchestrated the Nord Stream sabotage, it has an uphill battle arguing the premise the US blew up Nord Stream.
Chennault may have been on the payroll of Chiang Kai-Shek in 1937, but it wasn't until 1940-41 that he began to recruit pilots. They would have returned to proper military service shortly after the war began, but NLT 1942.
The point that I'm making is that I don't see paperwork concerns as being high on the list of matters that the US would be worried about if it determined that the pipeline was a Problem. Both Biden and Nuland made it clear that there was some sort of procedure in place to take out the pipeline; per Hersh, the consensus among those involved was that Biden had given the whole thing up. (If there really are people good at telling lies for our government as you say, these two certainly aren't part of that group.)
"Navy archives still have a record of virtually every order given to ship commanders in the Pacific during WW2; imagine the risk of having a written copy of the orders needed to deploy USN divers to pay Nord Stream 1 and 2 multiple visits floating around on the Pentagon servers."
One more point.
The orders you describe here would almost certainly have been classified and out of reach for decades; the idea that any and all orders pertaining to troop, aircraft, or ship movements are subject to immediate viewing via FOIA request doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The need for secrecy surrounding the movement of military assets would be recognized across the US political spectrum; nobody would be pushing to publicize this information.
Who said anything about a FOIA request? Plain old espionage or a simple security leak a la Edward Snowden would be reason enough to make sure the paper trail did not exist.
The US was sending U-2s on regular sight-seeing tours across the Ural Mountains, all the while insisting to the world that we wouldn't do such a thing.
(What changed since 1960 that would suddenly make the US shy about doing whatever it wanted and simply lying about it?)
Why have government liars become so clumsy? You'd think with all the money they have, they could hire people to think up really persuasive lies. Next week they'll be saying "The dog ate my pipeline."
Perhaps because they are well aware that the willfully blind (I'm surrounded by them here in NYC) will swallow anything from corporate media and politically correct pundits as long as believing (and parroting) it will keep them in good stead in their cult membership.
Their target audience is like a junkie hooked on My Side narratives. It doesn't matter how plausible or outlandish any particular lie may be, the point is supplying the necessary narrative to keep the cognitive dissonance from kicking in.
I think so too. The US is transitioning to a cultural model of psychopathy. Winning points are for how well you play the game; ethical and moral foundations out the door.
That's good point. We've gone from, if you're gonna lie, make it big--the more outlandish, the less likely it'll be questioned. Now, they start with whoppers and embellish them.
Remember, the most recent era started with the "pee tape" and no one in media doubted it. Despite no tape ever existing. All fantasy/fiction/imagination/fabrication.
It's not so much that they are sloppy, but rather that they do not give a fig whether you believe their story or not. Since high-profile, high-priority Jeffrey Epstein was "suicided" in his high-security prison cell and only his cell's cameras were not working... Really, that was the pinnacle of an F U to public credulity. That said, this current generation of politicos and spooks seem somehow degraded and far less imaginative than they were decades ago.
And to that, let's point out that saying people are dead is the easiest way to wipe the public anger off their radar. CIA collaborator doesn't need to worry about getting the guard switched out and walking peacefully out the doors. Borrow a body from the morgue as a decoy if need be.
Because they know it doesn't matter: those who'll believe any flimsy story from official mouthpieces---that Jan. 6 was an "insurrection," that mRNA vaccines are "safe and effective," and so on---will also unthinkingly swallow whatever spin on the Nordstream attack that they're served; and those who don't believe such things are absolutely powerless to change U.S. policy. Of course, members of the so-called "opposition" party are either openly on-board with the lies or are working tirelessly to redirect the peasants' discontent into such safe channels as Hunter's laptop, militant Sinophobia or wokester triggering.
I am an old man. My last year of my '70's is about to start. Obvious lies like this told by our "leaders" have been a staple of my lifetime. Lots of reasonable questions unanswered/labelled as "conspiracy theories".
There is an old saying that a sure sign that you are crazy is when you think the rest of the world is crazy. When I see obvious BS like this attested to by all my "betters", I begin to wonder how I can be the only sane one. Eugyppius and this comment section gives me some hope.
Excuse me, I have to go order another gross of tin foil hats. I am going through them at an increasingly high rate.
I think if you are a betting person, the odds on the conspiracy theory being correct, out of the box, are at least comparable to the "official" story. Even though the "conspiracy theory" community has some truly wacky denizens. But--are they worse than the "official" story? Not clear to me.
Last time I tried to turn on the TV, wasn't sure it worked. Got rid of the satellite service.
I am a great fan of "the other side of the story". There always is one. It may or may not be accurate but gives one perspective. Whenever the Fake News pronounces something "debunked" (they almost never reference the debunking), I start digging.
Cabystander, I am nearer the other end of your decade. A mid-century baby. I have thought to purchase a yard of Faraday fabric (to make cases for phones, laptops)--but had the fun thought of making a hat! Of course, with face unshielded, the hat would only be a virtue signal.
lmao the Ukraine most definitely does not have this capability. Arguably so in the Black Sea when not being shot at by the Russians, but no way no how from a rented yacht in the Baltic. Poorly executed "information warfare" here, fodder for the idiot NAFO dog crowd.
it's kind of weird how bad the story is, tbh. the rented yacht with traces of explosives on the table. why not just blame it on letzte generation if it's going to be this weak?
Yes. My thoughts exactly. Such a lame faux narrative means they’ve lost their best spinners.
Maybe Zelensky asked Biden to have Ukraine blamed in order to incite a Russian retaliation and Biden thought the idea was grand. Austin and Milley, too.
My thoughts exactly. It's not the reported story, but how stupid it is and who put it and and why is it coming out now. Maybe, shortly we will hear that it is "russian disinformation"?
No one had an interest to blow up the pipelines ,except the Biden crew .It seems the gas was still flowing when the pipes blew up ?.On the serves of the Baltic sea there was a large bubble of gas ,as shown on pictures .I can't understand why Russia would send gas to Germany ,while at the same time the Germans send a swarm of Panzers to the Ukraine to kill Russians .It may have to do with build back better ?
Absolutely. No scuba company on the planet trains people to dive below 164 feet (50 meters). Very few humans on the planet, maybe a couple thousand in total, can go beneath 200 feet without killing themselves. It’s probably possible to identify all from scuba magazines and a few deep water diving recovery operators (there are no pretty fish sightseeing at 80meters).
The only ones that also have explosives training are former or actively employed military personnel in a handful of countries not named Ukraine. The idea a band of random Ukrainians could cobble together the experience, materials, and ability to explore an undersea pipeline 265 feet down is absurd. A good investigative reporting company would realize it’s not a huge task to contact every non-active duty military person on the planet capable of dives at that depth. Anyone buying this baloney is an idiot. An advanced military did this and it wasn’t Russia.
There is a group of amateur hobby divers that take the sport to extreme mixed gas using rebreathers. These guys are well known and not likely to do this “project”.
No scuba equipment can let you dive this deep safely. The dive tables only go to 164 ft and the time limit at that depth is 5 min. You will burn through 80 cu ft of air (one tank) in about 5 min anyway at that depth the pressure being 5 atmospheres.
At 260ft the pressure is 8 atm. So each breath is 8 times the volume of gas at sea level and 20/80 nitrox mix is toxic, must use heliox at something like 8/92 mix. (Don’t dive on my mixtures) a rebreather should be able to give you a variable ox (lower ox) ratio as depth increases.
The "official investigation" results for a least a half century now is what they put together to become "the official narrative." Any questioning after that is conspiracy theory, government hate, extremist fringe minority. JFK - so much in VIETNAM (and every war since) - TWA 800 - 911 - 2000 election etc.etc.
I am awaiting the release of the JFK investigation. I was 19 (taking an aerodynamics exam) when he was assassinated, it appears that I will not live long enough to see the results.
Come on. This is a lie. They are muddying the waters like they did during the COVID debacle so as to create doubt and confusion. This has US intelligence agency work all over. What is sad is that the US politicians and 3 letter agencies will do anything to protect their power and are fine destroying this once great nation. US won’t have have much longer at this rate. This place is becoming a miserable nation led by liars and indoctrinators peddling division and fear.
Even if no one believes it, it does not matter. It just has to compete with Hersh' story, and by its very unbelievableness sows doubts, and people will stop to be interesting in the Nordstream issue altogether.
"Ah, so many stories about the explosion. No one can decide what is true and what is not, so just forget about it."
That, sadly, is true of so much today. The sheer volume of the unending spate of lies shortens the 'news cycle' to mere minutes. People with families to feed, and lives to lead, don't have the time, or often the inclination, to try to figure which of the lies is the most plausible. So they don't.
Andreas, yes exactly. From now on people will remember that there is another theory and it’s Ukraine which makes most people believe that Hersh’s account is simply one of many. A proven psychos technique to create doubt and diminish the impact of Hersh’s revelations.
Funnily enough, most people never were very interested in finding out who conducted a major operation against infrastructure, which was a tremendous blow against Germany.
Maybe it is a sign that there are rumbling in the population which are perceived as dangerous, thus they launched this counter-story.
The only country who is of interest is Germany, and there was a demo last weekend against the war. It was a mid-sized demo (it is still cold), but initiated by one of the most famous politicians, Sarah Wagenknecht. She is from the far left (hated by her own party, much like Trump was), but there are discussions she may from her own party.
On that demo it was explicitly said that supporters of the much maligned AfD would also be welcome. In the past, those demonstrations were called extremists as soon as only one person which may be right showed up.
The political/media elite in Germany may be afraid of a counter movement which is neither left nor right
I'm sure that's a concern they have - a Querfront. But would they really think that coming up with that weird story would in some way deflect their anger? I mean...do they really think somebody who turns up at Wagenknecht's demo will be mollified by a mainstream media story about how six Ukrainians blew up the pipeline?
Those who already go to the demos are lost already for the regime anyway.
But they are not so many.
And I think for the average normie with whom you discuss Nordstream, this new story is a good excuse to reject this right-wing conspiracy theory that the USA and Saint Joe had anything to do with the attack on Germany's key infrastructure.
If the last years showed anything, than this: the average citizen is very willing to believe the most outlandish lies, and will find any excuse to defend the regime that enslaves him.
So Scholz goes to Washington, meets with Biden, no press conference, and then we get this new narrative. Clearly Scholz is a neutered and toothless lapdog if, in the face of an Act of War against Germany by its "ally" the USA, he's party to this ridiculous, insulting storyline. I can't tell which of our governments is more loathsome, eugyppius.
The only story more utterly ridiculous than Russia bombing their own pipeline (while leaving the one that runs THROUGH UKRAINE INTACT) is this farcical tale that half a dozen dudes on a pleasure yacht managed to somehow secure hundreds of kilos of waterproof explosive penetrator- dove down 200ft and secured them to the pipelines, cause you know the Ukrainians navy has lots of divers, and did all this without arousing any suspicion anywhere and evaded all surveillance. Bullshit.
Although... although... wait for it... imagine all this gear was donated by Germany to be used in crimea at some point.. and the Ukrainians used it to bomb nordstream instead. I almost want it to be true so that Scholz can do his cuck thing again
Wait - what? So why wouldn't the mysterious Ukrainians bomb the pipeline that runs through Ukraine and save themselves a lot of trouble in the process?
Its called the Druzhba pipeline. And the Russians pay the Ukrainians transit fees to use it.
Also - one other thing - the Russians can blow up pipelines on their side of the border. They don't need to sally forth to the middle of the damn baltic sea to do it. The whole thing is just a really bad joke.
An amusing aspect of this latest twist, is that all the earliest reporting had German, Scandinavian officials saying that this could only have been done by a state actor. The pipes are 80 metres deep! Encased in concrete! This is not something just anybody with a yacht and explosives could pull off!
Now the official line is indeed that it was pulled off by some randos with a vanfull of explosives who rented a yacht.
If it doesn't have to make sense, couldn't they just blame the North Koreans or the Iranians or something?
The support network for this operation needs to be fairly extensive. The dives require engineering dive sleds to move the mines required.
The ocean is cold dark and deep. You also need medical support with a hyperbaric chamber for emergencies, not on a yacht.
Four divers minimum, two teams of two. Air for four people, two dives each team, for minimum of four hours of air for each of of the four divers.
They need to be practiced and rehearsed. And they need a support team that reviewed their training scores.
It does not seem likely it was blown up from a rental yacht. You would have difficulty with torpedoes and a submarine.
It was a trained and current demolition team. They did a good job. I don’t agree with the action but they should get a medal.
This story is ridiculously stupid. Not sure why they are putting this out now and who they expect to believe it. The earlier comment that it had to be a state actor is completely true. You are just touching the surface about how hard this event was to pull off.
Offshore companies spend literally millions of dollars for underwater operations that would be much, much less risky to pull off than this feat. Why is no-one asking questions like where these ‘6 people on a yacht’ got the funding, equipment, training and most importantly the explosives to execute this operation, without leaving any trace besides ‘professionally forged passports’ and a ‘boat left in uncleaned conditions, in which explosive traces were found’. Again it’s beyond comical anyone would believe a story like that.
And about the passports, doesn’t anyone find it extremely unlikely the people who did this, would forge ‘Ukranian and Russian’ passports to use when ‘renting the yacht’? I’m not a career criminal but it seems to me forging a passport from pretty much any other country in the world except maybe North Korea would be a better idea? And it gets even weirder when the ‘intelligence’ points out that although the passports were forged, there are ‘definitely no British or American’ nationalities involved, yet they somehow know that the woman who was supposedly involved was ‘a doctor’. I mean who even comes up with a story like that?
Oh, it wasn’t so tough for Victoria Nuland and Joe Obiden though. When you have the goons, the naval expertise and the desire, you just have to be Clintonesque, and voila!
I am sure they already have. Classified of course, but in their personnel files.
I’ve had a day or two to think about what I wrote off the cuff and do some better math. The scenario I painted is hopelessly underpowered for the problem of two pipelines. Thousands of personnel had to have been involved in this operation and all kinds of ships subs, aircraft, and satellites. I don’t know how NATO et. al. expected it to be a secret op and not get the blame. I feel so awful about it. 🙏🏻
It could be done with a smaller support group than that, but you are correct about oxygen tanks, equipment, medical team, explosives, etc., those are not going to fit on a little boat like that. And certainly not produce the size and scale of those explosives. But a single naval support ship could provide all that (which is why the exercise last summer is the suspect), so it wouldn't take an armada.
When I said thousands I am thinking of the extended logistics, ship resupply, ordnance release and transport, communications security, special equipment (signals secure transmitters and remote detonation equipment that still works after 3 months in 300 ft of water.)
Then there is keeping the various governments informed, and the creation of the official propaganda story. And there is the plan B contingency if something fails to work. Cleanup; do they require follow up missions to clean up loose ends? They are still cleaning up and propagandizing the JFK hit. How many centuries are they going to cover for this abomination?
But, if Ukraine was responsible then why is Germany supporting their war effort and housing so many refugees? Surely this claim would stoke the fires of resentment?
I mean, can we trigger article 5 and attack Ukraine now?
Seriously, it's a kind of a strange story to run with.
Martians,
I am sure they did it!
It is possible the bombers were a bunch of gender ___ who identified as Navy Seals
So they were transbranchofthearmedforces, so to speak.
No. Demolition divers really do require the strength and endurance of a young adult healthy male.
That would be eunuchs ... because diving demolition requires athletic performance of a young adult male human, probably not “trans”.
They couldn’t use Seals without notifying Congress, presumably getting a Dec of War?
not strange at all. look around you. the germans buy any bullshit they’re told. and if not, they just shut up.
there wouldn’t even be an outrage if they claimed they saw deers hovering over area and a heavy man with a red coat diving in the sea.
I doubt it will wash. The demo in Berlin two weeks ago was huge - despite the sleet and the cold. I think the tide is turning against support for this war.
Oh I hope so.
Because both Biden and Nuland are the only people to date that have declared their intention to blow up the pipelines, and motive was not lacking, I am sticking with the Hersch story as the most credible.
Yep. Yet the world at large will believe whatever the media tells them to believe.
Unfortunately
What's their next level? An UFO phenomenon did it?
Climate change?
I have an explanation.
Even though this bombing apparently hurt Germany, it's MORE important that it hurt Russia, so it's all good.
Is that workable?
Keep in mind that Russia had already turned off Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2 never was put into operation.
The sabotage didn't reduce Germany's access to Russia's natural gas supplies--Putin had already done that. All the sabotage did was prevent Putin from turning the pipelines back on.
Because Germany loves shooting itself in the foot and any excuse to marinate in pity stories of disadvantaged suffering.
well, a lone guy with a rental truck full of fertilizer blew up that building in oklahoma....and it only took a single bullet to kill the president and wound a bunch of people in dallas....
Yeah right. Now look up how Hillary’s records got destroyed just in time with OK. And the CIA was behind TX. Yes, we have believed their lies for many decades. No more.
"You mean wipe it? Like with a cloth?"
-Hillary
Good point. Compared to the magic bullet theory this stuff is positively plausible.
We have been gaslit by lies and coverups for a long time. Julis Caesar was not the first counsel to be assassinated by the Roman Senate ... and the lies and wars continue.
Read some embarrassing comments on Zeit online about how in fact it's still more likely the russians did it. I'm looking forward to the many desperate narrative twists we will witness in the future.
Why would the russians do it? All they'd need to do is claim some intractable maintenance issue on their end requiring a shutdown for some undetermined length of time, then just shut up.
All the Russians would need to do is turn off the valve.
I was washing my hands this morning and the bathroom sink tap was running. So I went to my toolshed, took out a lump hammer, and smashed the mains water pipe leading into the house.
Now the tap has stopped running. Job done!
Indeed. Those weird comments mostly propagate 4D chess-like explanations of how Russia did it and laid a false trail to Ukraine to disrupt the relations between Ukr and Germany.
I have it on good authority that the perpetrators of this attack were Welsh Buddhist druids.
Very skilled in the art of free diving, your Welsh Buddhist druid.
They set out in a coracle from Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.
Yes. That is a real place.
Don't believe me?
Well.
The mighty Leek is the national symbol of Wales and the explosions caused a mighty leak.
You can't tell me that's just a coincidence.
No scuba company on the planet trains people to dive below 164 feet (50 meters). Very few humans on the planet, maybe a couple thousand in total, can go beneath 200 feet. It’s probably possible to identify all except those actively employed by the handful of militaries, not Ukraine’s, that can dive that deep and plant high powered explosives to remote detonate underwater.
The idea a band of random Ukrainians could muster the experience, materials, and ability to explode an undersea pipeline 265 feet down is absurd. A good investigative reporting company would realize it’s not a huge task to contact every non-military person on the planet capable of dives at that depth. Anyone buying this baloney is an idiot. An advanced military did this and it wasn’t Russia. It was most likely highly trained US military divers.
I'm pretty sure that you're using "reasoning" which is part of wrongthink. This is double plus ungood.
Also... how long before the above shows up as a movie on Netflix/Amazon/HBO?
Within the year........... or all us wrongthink folks will be in a lived streamed reeducation camp.
Not sure they'll be able to find too many non Caucasian, trans, disabled, socialist, vegan, divers, to pull the movie off to best effect.
i agree, it wasn't randos.
US Navy
Mossad
"German media says you won't get sick if you get the vaccine". Same guys with this story.
It was Gilligan and The Skipper who were the divers. The Professor was the mastermind. Ginger was the hot woman who distracted all the people from noticing the Millionaire and his Wife loading all the C4 onboard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8jhb5NnADM
Limpet mines or whatever the current mil designation is nowadays. They were not typically remote detonated in history. That would have required the super secret cracker jack box long wave decoder kit.
Not a common part and the expertise to set it up on the sea bed is very specialized training.
At least blame the DUP. Then they can get the NI deal over the line!
Sounds like 911.
All media is entertainment--and this story is particularly entertaining.
That is, if you don't mind having your intelligence insulted with trolling propaganda.
And news media wonders what happened to their credibility... LOL!
I think that's where we are today. The people writing this stuff are literally trolling and under no obligation to make it believable to the mildly-intelligent.
The purpose of news and propaganda is to sell advertising. The purpose of advertising us to fund propaganda.
Def-Propaganda, articles and writings designed to persuade and alter spending patterns and actions.
So... are action movies with rogue heroes that have access to unlimited tech popular in Germany?
This explanation sounds like something that would be in a classic Stallone/ Schwarzenegger/Van Damme/Segal film.
That being said, are were sure this isn't a plot from an 80s/90s action film?
Redlined my malarky meter.
Lol
They really think we are that stupid.
Umm... not sure about Germany, but many Americans are that stupid.
All the best lies contain some truths - just not the whole truth and nothing but the truth - so it could well be a yacht or some ‘pro-Ukrainian’ group, but that doesn’t mean the US wasn’t running the operation and giving cash/material support. (Yacht - Aristotle Onassis had a private ‘yacht’, it was a converted former warship.)
While not just anybody with a yacht and some C4 could carry out this sabotage, the notion that a state actor had to be the culprit was never exactly logical. Given the number of private military companies out there, as well as the number of diving and undersea construction companies just in Norway and Denmark alone, it is almost certain the relevant skill sets can be found in the private sector. Indeed, the sketchiest part of Hersh's narrative is the use of active duty USN divers--surely the CIA has off the book assets that could carry this out while maintaining plausible deniability.
It just has to make enough sense not to be completely impossible.
This is why Hersh's lack of any solid physical evidence is so important. No matter how credible Hersh's narrative appears, no matter how likely it is to be true, without the smoking gun it's a fairly simple media exercise to plant competing narratives and bury the whole story in a swamp of contradictions.
These stories aren't going to shift public opinion, but that is not really necessary. Chaos, confusion, and competing narratives are the essence of "plausible deniability."
If the US used spec ops guys, it would have to be reported to Congress.
So...regular US Navy divers were in the neighborhood during BALTOPS 2022.
Good article in Sea Power magazine detailing their endeavor. Start there.
https://seapowermagazine.org/baltops-22-a-perfect-opportunity-for-research-and-resting-new-technology/
Regular USN divers means regular USN chain of command--which means a potential paper trail. Navy archives still have a record of virtually every order given to ship commanders in the Pacific during WW2; imagine the risk of having a written copy of the orders needed to deploy USN divers to pay Nord Stream 1 and 2 multiple visits floating around on the Pentagon servers.
Not the sort of thing you want to risk with a covert operation such as this.
You want no traceable evidence leading back to Washington, or Brussels, or Berlin--and preferably not even to Kyiv.
It's very convenient to say that there were Navy divers in BALTOPS 2022--but that does not amount to proof that those divers were, in fact, used in that way.
As for the Sea Power article, it's a general paean to the technological and innovative prowess of the United States Navy. It doesn't have any evidentiary weight in establishing that USN divers were used to plant explosive charges on the Nord Stream pipelines.
Always remember that "plausible deniability" does not mean making people believe you didn't do something. It means being able to get away with saying "prove it" to any accusation that might be leveled. Plausible deniability in diplomatic circles is a rough equivalent to reasonable doubt in criminal defense.
For all of Russia's protestations about the Nord Stream sabotage, at present they are not prepared to challenge these corporate media narratives. If the US Navy blew up the Nord Stream pipelines, that arguably is an act of war by the US against Russia, which means Putin would eventually be compelled to respond as if the US had declared war on Russia. So far, Putin has not done so--and the likelihood that he will diminishes with each passing day and week.
Right now, Putin firmly believes the US did in fact blow up Nord Stream 1 and 2 (and Putin is far from alone in this belief), which is to say the US committed an act of aggression against Russia, yet Putin is willing to let this act of war pass by without some retaliation at the very least in response. That's the power of plausible deniability.
"Regular USN divers means regular USN chain of command--which means a potential paper trail."
Unless the divers were simply taken "off the books", even if for only a few days.
There's certainly precedent. See, Claire Chennault and his "Flying Tigers". See, Francis Gary Powers, whose very existence was vehemently denied until the Soviets presented the picture of him standing next to the wrecked fuselage of his U-2.
The question that the Russians asked then, "Who else could have possibly put someone in a plane up in the highest reaches of the sky except the US?" could easily be directed to us today. ("Who else could have possibly prepared ordinance around a pipeline at the bottom of the ocean to detonate at will?")
I think the US is in a very desperate situation with regard to Russia and it wouldn't hesitate to push the envelope with a stunt as bold as an act of war against that country; any concerns over paperwork would be near the very bottom of a long list of items to fuss over.
Jeez. Do some research on how a hard hat dive work. Or better yet, ask a commercial diver. Can't hide a supplied air operation, and salvage guys aren't operating in stealth. Stop watching cartoons and do some real thinking. DUH
Agree...not everything is in writing.
Claire Chennault retired from the US Army in 1937, and was not returned to active duty status until 1942. He became Chiang Kai-Shek's aviation adviser shortly before the start of the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937, and did not form the American Volunteer Group (the "Flying Tigers") until 1941.
That's not a precedent for taking military personnel "off the books" and then later moving them back on the books. Having a team of divers "resign" from the Navy and then returning them to active duty status even six months later would be about as dead a giveaway as could be imagined.
Fun fact: Claire Chennault resigned again from the US Military in 1945, and went on to found Civil Air Transport, which later became the CIA's "Air America" operation.
Francis Gary Powers was discharged from the Air Force in 1956 when he went to work for the CIA in the U2 program--four years before he was shot down over Soviet Russia. Again, not the same thing as moving a team of divers off the active duty roster for a brief interval for a covert op and then returning them to active service later, as Powers' separation from active duty US military was a one-way transfer years before he was shot down.
Would the US government be so bold as to blow up Nord Stream? Yes.
Would the planners of such a covert op be particularly concerned that nothing about it could trace back to the US government? Yes.
Are there divers with the technical skills to operate at the depth of the Nord Stream pipelines NOT associated with any nation's military? Yes. The oil and gas industry relies on them every single day.
Now, would Ukraine have the resources to recruit such individuals for a covert op in the Baltic? Debatable, but probably not.
However, it is the possibilities these realities engender that creates "plausible deniability." As long as Russia does not obtain actual "smoking gun" evidence showing how the US orchestrated the Nord Stream sabotage, it has an uphill battle arguing the premise the US blew up Nord Stream.
Chennault may have been on the payroll of Chiang Kai-Shek in 1937, but it wasn't until 1940-41 that he began to recruit pilots. They would have returned to proper military service shortly after the war began, but NLT 1942.
The point that I'm making is that I don't see paperwork concerns as being high on the list of matters that the US would be worried about if it determined that the pipeline was a Problem. Both Biden and Nuland made it clear that there was some sort of procedure in place to take out the pipeline; per Hersh, the consensus among those involved was that Biden had given the whole thing up. (If there really are people good at telling lies for our government as you say, these two certainly aren't part of that group.)
"Navy archives still have a record of virtually every order given to ship commanders in the Pacific during WW2; imagine the risk of having a written copy of the orders needed to deploy USN divers to pay Nord Stream 1 and 2 multiple visits floating around on the Pentagon servers."
One more point.
The orders you describe here would almost certainly have been classified and out of reach for decades; the idea that any and all orders pertaining to troop, aircraft, or ship movements are subject to immediate viewing via FOIA request doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The need for secrecy surrounding the movement of military assets would be recognized across the US political spectrum; nobody would be pushing to publicize this information.
Who said anything about a FOIA request? Plain old espionage or a simple security leak a la Edward Snowden would be reason enough to make sure the paper trail did not exist.
Then use pigeon.
The US was sending U-2s on regular sight-seeing tours across the Ural Mountains, all the while insisting to the world that we wouldn't do such a thing.
(What changed since 1960 that would suddenly make the US shy about doing whatever it wanted and simply lying about it?)
I doubt very much that Navy archives still have a record of virtually every order given to ship commanders in the Pacific during WW2.
The Navy Archives date back to 1882. Several document collections within the Archives are even older.
Today's US Navy is run by The Village People.
Which is an argument against BALTOPS 2022 being used as cover for setting up the Nord Stream sabotage.
Why have government liars become so clumsy? You'd think with all the money they have, they could hire people to think up really persuasive lies. Next week they'll be saying "The dog ate my pipeline."
Perhaps because they are well aware that the willfully blind (I'm surrounded by them here in NYC) will swallow anything from corporate media and politically correct pundits as long as believing (and parroting) it will keep them in good stead in their cult membership.
It has worked reliably for years. No reason to abandon a winning strategy.
Yup!
Their target audience is like a junkie hooked on My Side narratives. It doesn't matter how plausible or outlandish any particular lie may be, the point is supplying the necessary narrative to keep the cognitive dissonance from kicking in.
You answered your own question. These smart people have already left some time ago.
I think it's a game for them now. "Are you kidding, they believed that?" "Here, hold my beer. I'm gonna throw this one out there..."
I think so too. The US is transitioning to a cultural model of psychopathy. Winning points are for how well you play the game; ethical and moral foundations out the door.
That's good point. We've gone from, if you're gonna lie, make it big--the more outlandish, the less likely it'll be questioned. Now, they start with whoppers and embellish them.
Remember, the most recent era started with the "pee tape" and no one in media doubted it. Despite no tape ever existing. All fantasy/fiction/imagination/fabrication.
lol. that's about it.
It's not so much that they are sloppy, but rather that they do not give a fig whether you believe their story or not. Since high-profile, high-priority Jeffrey Epstein was "suicided" in his high-security prison cell and only his cell's cameras were not working... Really, that was the pinnacle of an F U to public credulity. That said, this current generation of politicos and spooks seem somehow degraded and far less imaginative than they were decades ago.
And to that, let's point out that saying people are dead is the easiest way to wipe the public anger off their radar. CIA collaborator doesn't need to worry about getting the guard switched out and walking peacefully out the doors. Borrow a body from the morgue as a decoy if need be.
Because they know it doesn't matter: those who'll believe any flimsy story from official mouthpieces---that Jan. 6 was an "insurrection," that mRNA vaccines are "safe and effective," and so on---will also unthinkingly swallow whatever spin on the Nordstream attack that they're served; and those who don't believe such things are absolutely powerless to change U.S. policy. Of course, members of the so-called "opposition" party are either openly on-board with the lies or are working tirelessly to redirect the peasants' discontent into such safe channels as Hunter's laptop, militant Sinophobia or wokester triggering.
It was probably some dolphins with access to explosives.
Flipper went postal.
Invincible Ignorance...People are stupid AF
But were the explosives placed in the shape of a plant?
Yes, but in the shape of iconic music legend Robert Plant. An act of terrorism, yes. But one with musical taste.
Verry innnteresting!
Hahahaha! Grrreat!!!
It took them a month to come up with this? They need to hire better writers.
They used chatgpt
hahahahhaha
I am an old man. My last year of my '70's is about to start. Obvious lies like this told by our "leaders" have been a staple of my lifetime. Lots of reasonable questions unanswered/labelled as "conspiracy theories".
There is an old saying that a sure sign that you are crazy is when you think the rest of the world is crazy. When I see obvious BS like this attested to by all my "betters", I begin to wonder how I can be the only sane one. Eugyppius and this comment section gives me some hope.
Excuse me, I have to go order another gross of tin foil hats. I am going through them at an increasingly high rate.
Cabystandard;
My favourite riddle:
"What's the difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth?
About six months."
More like 60 days.
I think if you are a betting person, the odds on the conspiracy theory being correct, out of the box, are at least comparable to the "official" story. Even though the "conspiracy theory" community has some truly wacky denizens. But--are they worse than the "official" story? Not clear to me.
Cabystandard, I'm 10 years your junior, and agree with you.
I haven't watched/listened to any MSM in over 4 years.
I didn't get vaxxed, don't believe J6 was an insurrection, have read extensively about Ukraine from before and after 2014, and don't believe the BS
about NS.
I'm probably correct on all, but that doesn't make me feel proud, or smarter than anyone else.
I simply wish people would tune out MSM, and read more, and employ just a litle critical thinking...
Last time I tried to turn on the TV, wasn't sure it worked. Got rid of the satellite service.
I am a great fan of "the other side of the story". There always is one. It may or may not be accurate but gives one perspective. Whenever the Fake News pronounces something "debunked" (they almost never reference the debunking), I start digging.
These days, six weeks. At most.
Who knew tin foil hats could actually protect people against SADS?
Cabystander, I am nearer the other end of your decade. A mid-century baby. I have thought to purchase a yard of Faraday fabric (to make cases for phones, laptops)--but had the fun thought of making a hat! Of course, with face unshielded, the hat would only be a virtue signal.
Good idea.
As far as only being a "virtue signal", there is a lot of that going around these days. Pretty much passes for public policy.
lmao the Ukraine most definitely does not have this capability. Arguably so in the Black Sea when not being shot at by the Russians, but no way no how from a rented yacht in the Baltic. Poorly executed "information warfare" here, fodder for the idiot NAFO dog crowd.
it's kind of weird how bad the story is, tbh. the rented yacht with traces of explosives on the table. why not just blame it on letzte generation if it's going to be this weak?
Yes. My thoughts exactly. Such a lame faux narrative means they’ve lost their best spinners.
Maybe Zelensky asked Biden to have Ukraine blamed in order to incite a Russian retaliation and Biden thought the idea was grand. Austin and Milley, too.
My thoughts exactly. It's not the reported story, but how stupid it is and who put it and and why is it coming out now. Maybe, shortly we will hear that it is "russian disinformation"?
No one had an interest to blow up the pipelines ,except the Biden crew .It seems the gas was still flowing when the pipes blew up ?.On the serves of the Baltic sea there was a large bubble of gas ,as shown on pictures .I can't understand why Russia would send gas to Germany ,while at the same time the Germans send a swarm of Panzers to the Ukraine to kill Russians .It may have to do with build back better ?
It's like the red bandana and passport in the field after the 9/11 plane crash burned to oblivion
This might actually be a good idea since most of the German media will condone anything LG do.
This is obvious cover as USA realizes the consequences of being responsible and it’s clearly Swedish / Norwegian and USA op
Absolutely. No scuba company on the planet trains people to dive below 164 feet (50 meters). Very few humans on the planet, maybe a couple thousand in total, can go beneath 200 feet without killing themselves. It’s probably possible to identify all from scuba magazines and a few deep water diving recovery operators (there are no pretty fish sightseeing at 80meters).
The only ones that also have explosives training are former or actively employed military personnel in a handful of countries not named Ukraine. The idea a band of random Ukrainians could cobble together the experience, materials, and ability to explore an undersea pipeline 265 feet down is absurd. A good investigative reporting company would realize it’s not a huge task to contact every non-active duty military person on the planet capable of dives at that depth. Anyone buying this baloney is an idiot. An advanced military did this and it wasn’t Russia.
There is a group of amateur hobby divers that take the sport to extreme mixed gas using rebreathers. These guys are well known and not likely to do this “project”.
No scuba equipment can let you dive this deep safely. The dive tables only go to 164 ft and the time limit at that depth is 5 min. You will burn through 80 cu ft of air (one tank) in about 5 min anyway at that depth the pressure being 5 atmospheres.
At 260ft the pressure is 8 atm. So each breath is 8 times the volume of gas at sea level and 20/80 nitrox mix is toxic, must use heliox at something like 8/92 mix. (Don’t dive on my mixtures) a rebreather should be able to give you a variable ox (lower ox) ratio as depth increases.
Too deep for scuba. Period.
It seems most likely that the job was hatched in the US. It is also possible that they had assistance at some level from another nation (or nations).
But let’s see the official results of the investigation.
Don’t hold your breath.
The "official investigation" results for a least a half century now is what they put together to become "the official narrative." Any questioning after that is conspiracy theory, government hate, extremist fringe minority. JFK - so much in VIETNAM (and every war since) - TWA 800 - 911 - 2000 election etc.etc.
I am awaiting the release of the JFK investigation. I was 19 (taking an aerodynamics exam) when he was assassinated, it appears that I will not live long enough to see the results.
Beats me.
I was four when JFK was shot, climbing a tree at our relatives’ yard in Modesto.
Occam’s Razor tells you who likely did it.
Come on. This is a lie. They are muddying the waters like they did during the COVID debacle so as to create doubt and confusion. This has US intelligence agency work all over. What is sad is that the US politicians and 3 letter agencies will do anything to protect their power and are fine destroying this once great nation. US won’t have have much longer at this rate. This place is becoming a miserable nation led by liars and indoctrinators peddling division and fear.
And don't forget murdering us is big business now ,that pays extremely well .
Ask Hillary Clinton about that!
I saw the NYT carried this narrative, but not a word about Hersh's findings.
That says a lot...
They did mention Hersh and his story in the article.
Correction:
When Hersh's post first dropped.
Even if no one believes it, it does not matter. It just has to compete with Hersh' story, and by its very unbelievableness sows doubts, and people will stop to be interesting in the Nordstream issue altogether.
"Ah, so many stories about the explosion. No one can decide what is true and what is not, so just forget about it."
That, sadly, is true of so much today. The sheer volume of the unending spate of lies shortens the 'news cycle' to mere minutes. People with families to feed, and lives to lead, don't have the time, or often the inclination, to try to figure which of the lies is the most plausible. So they don't.
This is why an independent, objective press is so important for a democracy.
To have people whose job it is to investigate objectively and report back to citizens.
Since we have lost that free press, about 20 years or so ago, we have lost democracy.
Andreas, yes exactly. From now on people will remember that there is another theory and it’s Ukraine which makes most people believe that Hersh’s account is simply one of many. A proven psychos technique to create doubt and diminish the impact of Hersh’s revelations.
I think this is exactly correct and why they put it out there.
Funnily enough, most people never were very interested in finding out who conducted a major operation against infrastructure, which was a tremendous blow against Germany.
Maybe it is a sign that there are rumbling in the population which are perceived as dangerous, thus they launched this counter-story.
The only country who is of interest is Germany, and there was a demo last weekend against the war. It was a mid-sized demo (it is still cold), but initiated by one of the most famous politicians, Sarah Wagenknecht. She is from the far left (hated by her own party, much like Trump was), but there are discussions she may from her own party.
On that demo it was explicitly said that supporters of the much maligned AfD would also be welcome. In the past, those demonstrations were called extremists as soon as only one person which may be right showed up.
The political/media elite in Germany may be afraid of a counter movement which is neither left nor right
I'm sure that's a concern they have - a Querfront. But would they really think that coming up with that weird story would in some way deflect their anger? I mean...do they really think somebody who turns up at Wagenknecht's demo will be mollified by a mainstream media story about how six Ukrainians blew up the pipeline?
Those who already go to the demos are lost already for the regime anyway.
But they are not so many.
And I think for the average normie with whom you discuss Nordstream, this new story is a good excuse to reject this right-wing conspiracy theory that the USA and Saint Joe had anything to do with the attack on Germany's key infrastructure.
If the last years showed anything, than this: the average citizen is very willing to believe the most outlandish lies, and will find any excuse to defend the regime that enslaves him.
It looks partly like a way to make the Ukraine look plucky and resourceful; worthy of more $$ billions and extra cocaine.
Exactly. Here, you can be part of the big guys too.
Saying that capitaine Cousteau's Ghost did it would be more plausible at this point.
I don’t know what more ludicrous, this story or that they believe the majority of public will buy it (yes, some will).
In the USD, there are 81M that will.
So Scholz goes to Washington, meets with Biden, no press conference, and then we get this new narrative. Clearly Scholz is a neutered and toothless lapdog if, in the face of an Act of War against Germany by its "ally" the USA, he's party to this ridiculous, insulting storyline. I can't tell which of our governments is more loathsome, eugyppius.
Funny how this comes out <1 week after Biden's meeting with Scholz, were alibis on the agenda - yet another coincidence!
I wondered about that too.
Would the actually need to meet in private for that?
The only story more utterly ridiculous than Russia bombing their own pipeline (while leaving the one that runs THROUGH UKRAINE INTACT) is this farcical tale that half a dozen dudes on a pleasure yacht managed to somehow secure hundreds of kilos of waterproof explosive penetrator- dove down 200ft and secured them to the pipelines, cause you know the Ukrainians navy has lots of divers, and did all this without arousing any suspicion anywhere and evaded all surveillance. Bullshit.
Although... although... wait for it... imagine all this gear was donated by Germany to be used in crimea at some point.. and the Ukrainians used it to bomb nordstream instead. I almost want it to be true so that Scholz can do his cuck thing again
Wait - what? So why wouldn't the mysterious Ukrainians bomb the pipeline that runs through Ukraine and save themselves a lot of trouble in the process?
Its called the Druzhba pipeline. And the Russians pay the Ukrainians transit fees to use it.
Also - one other thing - the Russians can blow up pipelines on their side of the border. They don't need to sally forth to the middle of the damn baltic sea to do it. The whole thing is just a really bad joke.
Motive, means and opportunity - I should think that should rule out Russia as well as Ukraine (unless substantially aided by the US).