We’ve encountered Head Girl Science Fan Veronika Hackenbroch here at the plague chronicle once before. She’s a medical writer for Spiegel who defended lockdowns until the very end and is still fighting a halfhearted rearguard action to keep Corona alive.
Psychologist Stanley Milgram found that 80% of the population do not have the psychological or moral resources to defy an authority’s order, no matter how illegitimate the order is. Therefore only 20% have critical thinking capacity. Let’s hope he’s wrong this time.
20% with critical thinking capacity and only about 3% with enough courage to not do what everyone else is doing. My husband and I were nearly alone in never wearing a mask anywhere, not once. Only saw one maybe two people out doing the same at the grocery store, etc. The social pressure was too powerful for most people.
My experience was similar, but I noticed that when I got away with walking around without the face diaper, a few others felt encouraged to remove theirs.
I'm an advocate for a return of facial covering bans. Upheld by the International Human Rights Courts rulings, as recently as 2019, that we have "the right to interact with someone by looking them in the face and about not disappearing under a piece of clothing." Unobstructed human faces were declared a human right!! Just reimpose these laws. And pass them in the US. But make sure there's no emergency exception this time. It's not like they actually work and protect anybody from any emergency. Always just theater. The only way to reclaim injured minds from government mandated insanity is government mandated sanity.
Bans on *any* facial coverings, including masks. Reported as "burqa bans." But the law specifically included masks, all facial coverings. Prohibited. Period. Violations were fined. As recently as August, 2019. Just months before they were mandated.
"Judges at the European court of human rights (ECHR) have upheld France's burqa ban, accepting Paris's argument that it encouraged citizens to "live together". The law, introduced in 2010, makes it illegal for anyone to cover their face in a public place...the law was not aimed at the burqa or veil but any covering of the face in a public place... ...The European judges decided...that the preservation of a certain idea of "living together" was the "legitimate aim" of the French authorities. Isabelle Niedlispacher, representing the Belgian government, which introduced a similar ban in 2011 and which was party to the French defence, declared both the burqa and niqab "incompatible" with the rule of law. Aside from questions of security and equality, she added: "It's about social communication, the right to interact with someone by looking them in the face and about not disappearing under a piece of clothing." The French and Belgian laws were aimed at "helping everyone to integrate", Niedlispacher added."
Burqa bans, headscarves and veils: a timeline of legislation in the west
"On August 1, 2019, the “Act Partially Prohibiting Face-Covering Clothing,”also known as the “Burqa Ban,” entered into force in the Netherlands. The Act prohibits the wearing of clothing that completely or partially conceals the face in spaces where people are expected to communicate with each other. Thus, face-covering clothing is banned on public transportation and in educational, governmental, and nursing care institutions, but is still allowed in such public spaces as on train platforms. The ban applies to burqas, niqabs, full-face helmets, balaclavas, and masks, but not to headscarves."
Bans on masks, all across Europe, laws prohibiting any facial covering in public, shopping, transportation, workplaces, anywhere people would gather - Illegal!! The headlines said "burqa bans." the laws said no facial coverings, not even masks in public. Illegal!! Re-adopt in Europe Adopt in the US. Problem solved.
tomorrow I need to go shopping. If there are more than the 2 employees who have been masking all along (yes 3 years and counting) I might just leave and drive an additional 20 miles to go to a store with normal people!
In 2020, I drove an extra 20 miles to cross state lines and reach stores that had no mask requirements. But that was when I was still willing to give maskers the benefit of the doubt that they were just trying to do the right thing, and I was still willing to respect a store's right to make the rules on its own property. Those things have changed.
sometimes you wonder ! how can they work all day like that ? They are both in the colder sections and one sometimes uncovers her nose. It is a question mark to me, why they keep on masking, the others haven't had one on for a long time (I have only been going to this store for half a year due to their higher prices, but they save me the drive with the cost of gas)
It was quite different here in southern AZ, and unmasked people were always around in any store or walking around..Hilariously, there were some people wearing masks while driving.....but they were a small minority in our area...
Ditto with me and my wife. I had one old guy tell a cashier I was unmuzzled who to his credit did nothing, when I approached the old informer he ran off!!
Be wary of Milgram, whose experiment was largely discredited because it was found that he had suppressed data that would seriously have undermined the conclusions he was determined to obtain. During the experiment, he had his assistants conduct interviews with test subjects; many of the subjects said they had noticed timing errors (screams starting before they actually pressed the button), speakers and other apparatus; accordingly, when they were supposedly inflicting the highest levels of pain, they already knew that the situation was fake, not reality.
The transcripts had not been destroyed, and were reviewed in a 2012 journal article by psychologist Gina Perry. She wrote that there was a "troubling mismatch between (published) descriptions of the experiment and evidence of what actually transpired. ... [O]nly half of the people who undertook the experiment fully believed it was real and of those, 66% disobeyed the experimenter"
Milgram used a Frankfurt-School type "authoritarian personality" template, and wanted to propagandize for this, to insinuate that those who were religious believers, lived in two-parent families with several siblings, adhered to traditional moral standards etc. were just the kind of people who would accept, support and participate in any future N*z*-type regime.
Amusingly, Milgram's so-called "authoritarian personality" individuals were exactly the people who were most skeptical and unwilling to obey government during the Covid panic - a real-life demonstration of the fundamental fraudulence of his contentions.
Instead of Milgram, look at the Asch Conformity Experiments, which lacked Milgram's ideological baggage. These experiments demonstrated how subjects would give answers that they knew were absurd in order to conform to the answers that were given by all those around them (who were actually actors). Here, the person asking the questions was not trying to elicit any particular answer from the test subjects - the subjects simply didn't want to stand out from the crowd. There were further twists: when just one of the actors was told to show support for a test subject who had previously given absurd answers, the test subjects quickly switched and regained their confidence.
Hello Rob, my primary interest in the previous comment was to expose Milgram and his ideological purposes, since his name and experiments still carry a lot of prestige.
I don't attach great importance to the Asch experiments, since they were small scale and carried out, as you say, with the students immediately available (presumably because of a lack of funding). But even granting these limitations, I don't understand your objection that the subjects were "trying to impress the professor". How do you propose this worked? They were giving idiotic answers, so how was this likely to impress a professor? The most that could be said is that if the experiments had received funding to enable a broad representative sample from the population, the results might have been less pronounced.
Students, after all, are often confronted with counter-intuitive propositions in their courses (quarks can't exist in isolation; Germany didn't instigate WWI etc.). They are therefore more disposed to think that a professor will confront them with something bizarre that will be explained later, whereas those who have not passed through college are predisposed to think straightforwardly. The differences are likely to be much more extreme today than half a century ago, since today's students are expected to believe the trans/climate/Covid ideas, and "cancel" those who do not.
That is so interesting, thanks. Research psych fifty years ago was all about trying to replicate MIlgram. My friend and other students were doing this at U Detroit.
I wish I could remember what I was reading, but it was a study on how people will ignore something happening to another person until someone breaks what might be called a cognitive or emotional force field. So long ago, I'd have to track this down, but just as I was reading this, I was on a bus in California, and a woman fell out of one of the front seats onto the floor. No one moved or looked very long at her. I'd been reading this, so I got up and went to her, and after I did, all of the other passengers did too. That was the study's conclusion, also, that if someone breaks the paralysis, everyone follows.
I know people have found issues with Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment, but he has some elaborations and suggestions in his book The Lucifer Effect.
A simple example from my own experience came in the summer of 2020, when I was the only person in a supermarket who wasn't wearing a mask (I had a medical card at the ready if I was too chicken to brazen out a challenge). I knew that the person with me didn't believe in the efficacy of the masks, but didn't want to be the odd one out, or didn't want to "worry other people". In the queue for the cash desk, I loudly encouraged him to remove his mask, which he did, and then several others within earshot did the same, and a lively conversation started up, with everyone expressing relief that they weren't alone in their skepticism, and also that no-one was accosting or threatening them.
Regarding Milgram, I've checked over the dates, and see that I was a little hard on him, not for the faulty methodology, but for his use of Adorno's (Frankfurt School) "F-Scale" ("F" for "F*scist"). A few years after the original experimental sessions, he offered the F-Scale as a tool for possible interpretation, but noted that test subjects who grew up without a father showed a particularly strong tendency to follow the "scientist's" orders. This is nicely Freudian, but does not fit at all with the F-Scale (as Milgram must have realized). Milgram also suggest the (earlier) Asch experiments as a tool for an alternative interpretation. So Milgram, for all his methodological faults, wasn't determined to push the "Authoritarian Personality" concept above all other possibilities. Still, the F-Scale is such an obvious wish-list of all the personal and social behavior patterns that the Frankfurt School wanted to destroy, so you have to wonder about anyone who fails to notice this - are they competent psychologists at all, or do they have an interest in pretending that it is mere matter of science (rather than a political ruse)?
Students are highly impressionable. Especially at universities like Stanford.
They tend to come from families that seek upward mobility or are already up there.
It's a strange kind of competition in universities... I really didn't jive well with it and felt out of place there.
Also notice how with COVID, universities are full on pushing mandates above the government ones and there's little opposition to it, compared to a city mandate etc.
"The transcripts had not been destroyed, and were reviewed in a 2012 journal article by psychologist Gina Perry."
Thank you very much for your commentary and the above information.
I was unaware of the subsequent methodological controversy surrounding Milgram's experiment. I've downloaded the materials and am looking forward to a meticulous review of them.
Do you have any links to evidence of intentional bias on Milgram's part, or is it simply a matter of a "coin toss" selection of a Frankfurt School style template?
Still, it's clear that a majority of the population will do extremely harmful and foolish things to themselves and their families if the Government and talking heads on TV tell them to do so...There are innumerable examples, including WW1....
I disagree, fear porn instilled by the government and Mockingbird Media & knowledge gleaned by MK Ultra used on the population was very successful. The question now is whether the people learned anything.
I am curious, but think they will follow massively again. Only this week, I noticed a few maskers again at Walmart. Before, it used to be only a few store employees (I suspect WM still requires them to wear one, because quite a few had one round their neck and only a couple had none at all)
Be aware that the Milgram study (and also Zimbardo) have turned out to be fraud. They shouldn't be cited anymore. His notes showed that most of his subjects had guessed what was being studied.
Well we will see, the first go round with the Covid scare porn proved that the majority of the people don’t have critical thinking skills and just react with utter stupidity to government fear propaganda. They didn’t even take the time to look around and see the ridiculous bribery offered to coerce people into taking the jab. Donuts, French fries, to start with and then things got really ridiculous. There are still people who think the shots were great & will run to get the new one. I have these people in my family. I once thought they were intelligent. Let’s hope that the uptake of 10% of the last booster is more accurate of the resistance this time & Milgram proves to be wrong.
I'm not sure that negates the study though - because even if they HAD guessed what was being studied, they still acted based on the results they thought were wanted. The likelihood that everyone would assume the same desired outcome and then give it sort of defies odds.
See the comment by Rocio above. Remember that Milgram was telling them what he wanted the participants to do. The whole experiment relies on the assumption that the participants believe they're really giving electric shocks to some random person. This is a stupid assumption given that it was taking place in a university basement so it's no surprise that the participants cottoned on to what was going on. But now Milgram's notes prove it.
Those are interesting statistics, which seem to be borne out just by personal experiences too. I once knew a German artist who had been incarcerated at Auschwitz for not going along with the stance against Jews, and he spent 4 years doing the worst kind of labour and seeing daily horrors that shaped his art forever. His assessment of humanity was that about 85% were bastards and only 15% were decent human beings. In such extreme circumstances one certainly has a great opportunity to see humanity in the raw so to speak. That story has always stayed with me, and I honestly believe he was probably pretty close - after all, regardless of the subject matter, it is ultimately about whether one takes orders from 'authority figures' or not. Bullies in the schoolyard make others do their bidding and very few will stand up against that - so it must be a hard-wired thing - poured in with the breast-milk. There's even a name for those who are distinctly contrarian from an early age: 'Defiant Opposition Disorder' - which is regarded as pathological. It's a very frustrating phenomenon for those who have the courage of their convictions. Lately I have become somewhat hardened about the deadliness of the jabs because of it - I think that if we are going to defeat the New World Order we really don't need dead-baggage dragging us down - so the obedient ones are maybe meant to get out of the way. It's extremely uncharitable I know, but it is because of the 80% that we are still in the mess we are in so long after the initial clarion-call in 2020. During WW2, it was the heroes of the underground resistance that caused the most undermining of the brutal regime's schemes. And at the end of the day, no matter how the Shamdemic' all pans out, the 'miscreants' who defied the jabbers are still going to judged to be in the wrong because they didn't die or suffer serious adverse effects after 'doing the right thing' 'for the Greater Good'.
And in the history of mankind - masks have had dire usage & significance that is detrimental (outside of the usage in surgery & in natural catastrophes, etc).
I think it's going to be far worse than that. The genie's well out of the bottle now and the ilk behind this isn't of the "we lost, let's face it" type. They're more than 'if I can't be the star on the team and constantly get the ball, I'm taking my ball and no one's going to play' types. Think scorch-n-burn types. Which, without thinking, is EXACTLY what they did on 9-11 and Lahaina.
All of these people are deranged. COVID broke them beyond repair. They all should just buy a hazmat suit and be done with it. Leave the rest of us sane people alone.
I agree. They were always narcissistic hypochondriacs. Covid made their hypochondria and narcissism normal and highly sought after. They were finally the popular kids at the lunch table, they don't want to go back to sitting alone eating tater tots under their dirty masks.
People this upset about people not wearing masks should be encouraged to get the new booster as soon as it becomes available, and to make sure they stay current. It should never be more than 4 months since their last booster.
I wish I could present a respectful argument against your conclusion, John, I really do.
But I can't.
The behavioral scientists employed to break the will of masses of people, knew their business, understood what they were doing and the implications for the future of those who their dishonesty and manipulations injured and killed.
You, sir, are correct about permanent injury. I wish you were wrong, and I strongly suspect that you share that wish.
Angela Merkel's family moved to East Germany in 1954, which was seven years before the Wall was built. Her father was a Lutheran pastor, and was posted East, so the move, in itself, doesn't indicate Communist loyalties.
Merkel has plenty of dirty laundry from her East German days, discussed at length in "Das erste Leben der Angela M." (2013) by Ralf Georg Reuth and Günther Lachmann (there's no English translation). Even if some old debts were still being called in during the 90s, during her rise to the top of the CDU, I can't see how she could still be manipulated by some shadowy communist forces during her time as Chancellor.
The modern state and its bureaucracy defends itself by devious and sometimes brutal means, without any need for closet Communists or N*z*s lurking in the background. Merkel's ideas and policies as Chancellor all matched what was being discussed and proposed by her fellow Western politicians, and in think tanks and NGOs.
This moron can gimp mask herself up to the eyeballs, doesn’t mean a single member of the public needs to conform to her wants just so she feels better.
My own mother said she felt better wearing one even after I told her they were pointless and useless at stopping infection.
She acknowledged the real information but said wearing one made her feel better in busy shops.
They’ve played some real psychological games on the public and are still not done.
More people need to stick two fingers up at them and ignore every word they utter.
My elderly prim-and-proper mother says she’s warming up her middle fingers for anyone who tells her to put on a mask. She was terrified the first year of the scamdemic, wearing a silly sheer cloth mask that hung loosely away from her nose and bobbled up and down when she talked (but always one that matched her outfit!). I’m so glad she finally saw the light. (Literally she could see light through her mask when she held it up, and that was part of what made her realize what a scam it all was.)
The rebellion against masks isn’t based of the efficacy or lack of efficacy. They were forced on us despite SCIENCE being clear that they didn’t work( Bangladeshi study was an exception). Masks are not a bad idea- they just don’t work.
I have to disagree. I think masks are a bad idea. They create fear. They make communication difficult and they form a psychological barrier between people. I find that whenever I meet a masked person my eyes move to the masked area and the strange gyrations that the mask makes when they try and talk. I find I never even look at their eyes. It is simply a very bad idea all round.
Fair enough. My concern was their obligatory use when there still is not evidence of their benefit. Remember we were supposed to be following the SCIENCE.
Is she really saying that she won't protect the community out of fear of looking like an oddball?
Shouldn't she be a mask warrior and sally to the battlefield, courage and mask in hand? I'm starting to think these people are more concerned with themselves than others. She even sounds, gulp, narcissistic! I'm sure this cannot be and I am misunderstanding her word for word.
Masking is important part of the religion of those who want to rule the world. This religion appears to be a mix mash of Satanism, Egyptian, Biblical and Babylonian gods and goddesses along with trans humanism. One of the most important tenants of it is called: "mocking the victim".
Masks mock the victim when people willingly don symbols of subservience and obedience to tyranny, items which serve no purpose other than to make a laughing stock of those who go along with it. One is participating in self abuse required by someone else's sick pleasure.
So Ms. Hackenbroch, if you go along with this. that is your right. What is not your right is to insist that others participate in a religion they do not hold.
Be mocked by tyrants. Just don't ask that from the rest of us. We won't engage in obedience to tyrants.
“Masks are even better than for self-protection when it comes to protecting the community:” But CoVid Hobgoblin Fauci has re-emerged from under his stone to tell us that masks don’t protect the community, but protect the individual. He doesn’t explain, since a community is an aggregate of individuals, how that contradiction is explained. But really, these asylum escapees should get together and get their story straight. I’m getting confused. How many jabs do we need before we can ‘return to normal’?
John. I don't see a contradiction. What Fauci says is a lie, but not contradictory. If masks prevented spreading a disease (they don't), they would help the community, but not necessarily infected individuals wearing them.
I think you have read it the wrong way round. Maybe I can explain it better. He claims that masks don’t work for the public at large, but do on an individual basis. If they work for individuals and those individuals form a community, they must work for the community.
The lottery comes to mind. The benefits to the lottery playing public at large are infinitesimally small. But because an individual might win the lottery, playing the lottery works for that individual.
My inclination is to feel sorry for those wanting to diaper their faces but I'm beginning to think the slimy plastic beaks are attached to people who are just not empathetic or even nice.
Just this weekend, we were doing an outside concert on a lovely, well-groomed large sandy beach with a deck with facilities and restaurant.
EXAMPLE of awful mask wearer: (mid 60s) woman wearing double mask with her bathing suit (!) into ladies room. When she came out with lots of napkins on her hands she took off her mask and littered the napkins all over the place by shaking her hands so she didn't touch them wrong.
Littering, scowling, probably angry at those that invited her to a gorgeous (80 degree) day at the beach, this woman is a Debbie Downer litterer with no consideration of the people who will have to touch her napkins or the wildlife who encounter it.
I feel the masks tell us who to avoid.
I have other examples of masked meanies if anyone is interested.
Eugyppius, if available in German maybe you should send her the following from George Carlin about germs. It probably won’t heal her brain damage but it’ll show her that even an old comedian is smarter than she!
to be honest, i thought the cochrane dust-up would be more or less the end of it, and i’ve been a little unsettled by the recent push to make the virus a thing again, even though i can accept intellectually that’s it’s probably mostly vaccine marketing.
Plus the remnant of those who profited in other ways from the pandemic response itself. Everything from promotions, increased visibility and even just excitement and a sense of importance.
He has a mixed audience. Now he is a full-time writer he has to consider this. There appear to be three types of commentator on here:
1) WEF AND KLAUS SCHWAB PLANNED IT ALL WITH THE US MILITARY LOOK AT THE PRACTICE DRILLS THEY HAD. Their posts are very, very long and thickly larded with links to long, turgid articles. They are deeply upset about lockdowns and corona but they are in many ways as damaged as those who still wear masks. They throw the baby out with the bathwater and reject all vaccines, any medical authority etc. I have occasionally had to catch myself before going down this route.
2) Those who are still angry and upset about corona. They are right to be so: I sympathise and until recently I was one of them. I cannot remain angry forever as it is terrible for the soul. I won't forget, never, but I have understood that those in charge will never face justice as it would be expecting those guilty to volunteer for a circular firing squad.
3) Those who are more interested in corona as a symptom of societal collapse and insanity. This is ongoing and is fertile ground for more articles about 'Green' weirdness, trans barbarism etc etc. I am in this group which is why I continue to subscribe.
I too am in Group 3. I have sympathy for those who fell for the propaganda since it includes most people I know. But the bigger issue is societal collapse, as you say. The decline in quality we see across the board, including the pandemic response itself.
Head girl should be sent to the headmaster for a spanking, and to write out 100000 times "I am a human rights violator". She may wear a mask over the relevant anatomical location if desired.
I know a man who, during the height of mask nuttiness, kept a “Lone Ranger” eye mask in his pocket, and if the Karen guarding the door at a store demanded that he put on a mask, he readily complied - with his eye mask! I should get one of those, just in case. I hope my little corner of Texas won’t go that route again, but I want to be prepared!
My 85 year old dad was handed a mask at his cardiologist’s office, long after mask mandates were dropped. They said he had to wear it, so he hung it from one ear. He looked across the waiting room where a sad-looking woman had her mask on. She saw him with his mask dangling from one ear, her eyes lit up, and she took the mask off her face and hung it from one ear too with a big smile. Many people are just waiting for someone to lead the way!
Let’s make the mask nuts feel like the oddballs they are!!
The only point of the masks was to see how many would comply and to make / keep people terrified. They can only play that game once.
Psychologist Stanley Milgram found that 80% of the population do not have the psychological or moral resources to defy an authority’s order, no matter how illegitimate the order is. Therefore only 20% have critical thinking capacity. Let’s hope he’s wrong this time.
20% with critical thinking capacity and only about 3% with enough courage to not do what everyone else is doing. My husband and I were nearly alone in never wearing a mask anywhere, not once. Only saw one maybe two people out doing the same at the grocery store, etc. The social pressure was too powerful for most people.
My experience was similar, but I noticed that when I got away with walking around without the face diaper, a few others felt encouraged to remove theirs.
At base, I fear we are all still apes, most of whom will follow any local available alpha.
I'm an advocate for a return of facial covering bans. Upheld by the International Human Rights Courts rulings, as recently as 2019, that we have "the right to interact with someone by looking them in the face and about not disappearing under a piece of clothing." Unobstructed human faces were declared a human right!! Just reimpose these laws. And pass them in the US. But make sure there's no emergency exception this time. It's not like they actually work and protect anybody from any emergency. Always just theater. The only way to reclaim injured minds from government mandated insanity is government mandated sanity.
Bans on *any* facial coverings, including masks. Reported as "burqa bans." But the law specifically included masks, all facial coverings. Prohibited. Period. Violations were fined. As recently as August, 2019. Just months before they were mandated.
France's burqa ban upheld by human rights court
The UK Guardian, July 1, 2014
https://archive.fo/Eg2vw
"Judges at the European court of human rights (ECHR) have upheld France's burqa ban, accepting Paris's argument that it encouraged citizens to "live together". The law, introduced in 2010, makes it illegal for anyone to cover their face in a public place...the law was not aimed at the burqa or veil but any covering of the face in a public place... ...The European judges decided...that the preservation of a certain idea of "living together" was the "legitimate aim" of the French authorities. Isabelle Niedlispacher, representing the Belgian government, which introduced a similar ban in 2011 and which was party to the French defence, declared both the burqa and niqab "incompatible" with the rule of law. Aside from questions of security and equality, she added: "It's about social communication, the right to interact with someone by looking them in the face and about not disappearing under a piece of clothing." The French and Belgian laws were aimed at "helping everyone to integrate", Niedlispacher added."
Burqa bans, headscarves and veils: a timeline of legislation in the west
UK Guardian, May 31, 2018
https://archive.fo/WinLY
Netherlands: Burqa Ban Enters into Force
Library of Congress, August 27, 2019
https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2019-08-27/netherlands-burqa-ban-enters-into-force/
"On August 1, 2019, the “Act Partially Prohibiting Face-Covering Clothing,”also known as the “Burqa Ban,” entered into force in the Netherlands. The Act prohibits the wearing of clothing that completely or partially conceals the face in spaces where people are expected to communicate with each other. Thus, face-covering clothing is banned on public transportation and in educational, governmental, and nursing care institutions, but is still allowed in such public spaces as on train platforms. The ban applies to burqas, niqabs, full-face helmets, balaclavas, and masks, but not to headscarves."
Bans on masks, all across Europe, laws prohibiting any facial covering in public, shopping, transportation, workplaces, anywhere people would gather - Illegal!! The headlines said "burqa bans." the laws said no facial coverings, not even masks in public. Illegal!! Re-adopt in Europe Adopt in the US. Problem solved.
This was the pre-COVID law in New York.
tomorrow I need to go shopping. If there are more than the 2 employees who have been masking all along (yes 3 years and counting) I might just leave and drive an additional 20 miles to go to a store with normal people!
In 2020, I drove an extra 20 miles to cross state lines and reach stores that had no mask requirements. But that was when I was still willing to give maskers the benefit of the doubt that they were just trying to do the right thing, and I was still willing to respect a store's right to make the rules on its own property. Those things have changed.
I do the same thing. More than one clerk wearing a mask and I conclude they are too stupid to earn my money.
just got back. only one wearing a mask, around her neck, because she was outside - smoking LOLOL. Now that is what I call super stupid
They still have enough brain cells to do their work?
sometimes you wonder ! how can they work all day like that ? They are both in the colder sections and one sometimes uncovers her nose. It is a question mark to me, why they keep on masking, the others haven't had one on for a long time (I have only been going to this store for half a year due to their higher prices, but they save me the drive with the cost of gas)
It was quite different here in southern AZ, and unmasked people were always around in any store or walking around..Hilariously, there were some people wearing masks while driving.....but they were a small minority in our area...
Me too.
Ditto with me and my wife. I had one old guy tell a cashier I was unmuzzled who to his credit did nothing, when I approached the old informer he ran off!!
Be wary of Milgram, whose experiment was largely discredited because it was found that he had suppressed data that would seriously have undermined the conclusions he was determined to obtain. During the experiment, he had his assistants conduct interviews with test subjects; many of the subjects said they had noticed timing errors (screams starting before they actually pressed the button), speakers and other apparatus; accordingly, when they were supposedly inflicting the highest levels of pain, they already knew that the situation was fake, not reality.
The transcripts had not been destroyed, and were reviewed in a 2012 journal article by psychologist Gina Perry. She wrote that there was a "troubling mismatch between (published) descriptions of the experiment and evidence of what actually transpired. ... [O]nly half of the people who undertook the experiment fully believed it was real and of those, 66% disobeyed the experimenter"
Milgram used a Frankfurt-School type "authoritarian personality" template, and wanted to propagandize for this, to insinuate that those who were religious believers, lived in two-parent families with several siblings, adhered to traditional moral standards etc. were just the kind of people who would accept, support and participate in any future N*z*-type regime.
Amusingly, Milgram's so-called "authoritarian personality" individuals were exactly the people who were most skeptical and unwilling to obey government during the Covid panic - a real-life demonstration of the fundamental fraudulence of his contentions.
Instead of Milgram, look at the Asch Conformity Experiments, which lacked Milgram's ideological baggage. These experiments demonstrated how subjects would give answers that they knew were absurd in order to conform to the answers that were given by all those around them (who were actually actors). Here, the person asking the questions was not trying to elicit any particular answer from the test subjects - the subjects simply didn't want to stand out from the crowd. There were further twists: when just one of the actors was told to show support for a test subject who had previously given absurd answers, the test subjects quickly switched and regained their confidence.
Clarifies a lot. Thank you.
Wow, this explains why the results were so shocking, forgive the pun...
Funny that Milgram was way off on what a real authorian is, lol.
Asch was also not a good sample. Those were college students trying to impress the professor.
Try it with normal working class people... Lol
https://robc137.substack.com/p/the-milgram-experiment-and-how-we
Hello Rob, my primary interest in the previous comment was to expose Milgram and his ideological purposes, since his name and experiments still carry a lot of prestige.
I don't attach great importance to the Asch experiments, since they were small scale and carried out, as you say, with the students immediately available (presumably because of a lack of funding). But even granting these limitations, I don't understand your objection that the subjects were "trying to impress the professor". How do you propose this worked? They were giving idiotic answers, so how was this likely to impress a professor? The most that could be said is that if the experiments had received funding to enable a broad representative sample from the population, the results might have been less pronounced.
Students, after all, are often confronted with counter-intuitive propositions in their courses (quarks can't exist in isolation; Germany didn't instigate WWI etc.). They are therefore more disposed to think that a professor will confront them with something bizarre that will be explained later, whereas those who have not passed through college are predisposed to think straightforwardly. The differences are likely to be much more extreme today than half a century ago, since today's students are expected to believe the trans/climate/Covid ideas, and "cancel" those who do not.
That is so interesting, thanks. Research psych fifty years ago was all about trying to replicate MIlgram. My friend and other students were doing this at U Detroit.
I wish I could remember what I was reading, but it was a study on how people will ignore something happening to another person until someone breaks what might be called a cognitive or emotional force field. So long ago, I'd have to track this down, but just as I was reading this, I was on a bus in California, and a woman fell out of one of the front seats onto the floor. No one moved or looked very long at her. I'd been reading this, so I got up and went to her, and after I did, all of the other passengers did too. That was the study's conclusion, also, that if someone breaks the paralysis, everyone follows.
I know people have found issues with Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment, but he has some elaborations and suggestions in his book The Lucifer Effect.
A simple example from my own experience came in the summer of 2020, when I was the only person in a supermarket who wasn't wearing a mask (I had a medical card at the ready if I was too chicken to brazen out a challenge). I knew that the person with me didn't believe in the efficacy of the masks, but didn't want to be the odd one out, or didn't want to "worry other people". In the queue for the cash desk, I loudly encouraged him to remove his mask, which he did, and then several others within earshot did the same, and a lively conversation started up, with everyone expressing relief that they weren't alone in their skepticism, and also that no-one was accosting or threatening them.
Regarding Milgram, I've checked over the dates, and see that I was a little hard on him, not for the faulty methodology, but for his use of Adorno's (Frankfurt School) "F-Scale" ("F" for "F*scist"). A few years after the original experimental sessions, he offered the F-Scale as a tool for possible interpretation, but noted that test subjects who grew up without a father showed a particularly strong tendency to follow the "scientist's" orders. This is nicely Freudian, but does not fit at all with the F-Scale (as Milgram must have realized). Milgram also suggest the (earlier) Asch experiments as a tool for an alternative interpretation. So Milgram, for all his methodological faults, wasn't determined to push the "Authoritarian Personality" concept above all other possibilities. Still, the F-Scale is such an obvious wish-list of all the personal and social behavior patterns that the Frankfurt School wanted to destroy, so you have to wonder about anyone who fails to notice this - are they competent psychologists at all, or do they have an interest in pretending that it is mere matter of science (rather than a political ruse)?
Students are highly impressionable. Especially at universities like Stanford.
They tend to come from families that seek upward mobility or are already up there.
It's a strange kind of competition in universities... I really didn't jive well with it and felt out of place there.
Also notice how with COVID, universities are full on pushing mandates above the government ones and there's little opposition to it, compared to a city mandate etc.
I thought the number was about 60%, which seems about right...80% is too high when it comes to administering electric shocks....
"The transcripts had not been destroyed, and were reviewed in a 2012 journal article by psychologist Gina Perry."
Thank you very much for your commentary and the above information.
I was unaware of the subsequent methodological controversy surrounding Milgram's experiment. I've downloaded the materials and am looking forward to a meticulous review of them.
Do you have any links to evidence of intentional bias on Milgram's part, or is it simply a matter of a "coin toss" selection of a Frankfurt School style template?
Thanks for the reminder.
He failed to find us, the 1% that always defy authority.
Me too.
Still, it's clear that a majority of the population will do extremely harmful and foolish things to themselves and their families if the Government and talking heads on TV tell them to do so...There are innumerable examples, including WW1....
He most certainly wasn't wrong. I think covid demonstrated that.
He wasn't exactly right, either. The herd-following instinct played a greater role than submission to authority.
I disagree, fear porn instilled by the government and Mockingbird Media & knowledge gleaned by MK Ultra used on the population was very successful. The question now is whether the people learned anything.
I am curious, but think they will follow massively again. Only this week, I noticed a few maskers again at Walmart. Before, it used to be only a few store employees (I suspect WM still requires them to wear one, because quite a few had one round their neck and only a couple had none at all)
I'm not sure there's a difference. The herd IS the authority.
Be aware that the Milgram study (and also Zimbardo) have turned out to be fraud. They shouldn't be cited anymore. His notes showed that most of his subjects had guessed what was being studied.
Well we will see, the first go round with the Covid scare porn proved that the majority of the people don’t have critical thinking skills and just react with utter stupidity to government fear propaganda. They didn’t even take the time to look around and see the ridiculous bribery offered to coerce people into taking the jab. Donuts, French fries, to start with and then things got really ridiculous. There are still people who think the shots were great & will run to get the new one. I have these people in my family. I once thought they were intelligent. Let’s hope that the uptake of 10% of the last booster is more accurate of the resistance this time & Milgram proves to be wrong.
I'm not sure that negates the study though - because even if they HAD guessed what was being studied, they still acted based on the results they thought were wanted. The likelihood that everyone would assume the same desired outcome and then give it sort of defies odds.
See the comment by Rocio above. Remember that Milgram was telling them what he wanted the participants to do. The whole experiment relies on the assumption that the participants believe they're really giving electric shocks to some random person. This is a stupid assumption given that it was taking place in a university basement so it's no surprise that the participants cottoned on to what was going on. But now Milgram's notes prove it.
Milgram did his experiments among people who lived a different life than we do today.
There was prosperity which gives authority a boost.
Also, when the experiments were re run they got different results...
https://robc137.substack.com/p/the-milgram-experiment-and-how-we
Luckily the smartest 20% will almost always win in the end.
Those are interesting statistics, which seem to be borne out just by personal experiences too. I once knew a German artist who had been incarcerated at Auschwitz for not going along with the stance against Jews, and he spent 4 years doing the worst kind of labour and seeing daily horrors that shaped his art forever. His assessment of humanity was that about 85% were bastards and only 15% were decent human beings. In such extreme circumstances one certainly has a great opportunity to see humanity in the raw so to speak. That story has always stayed with me, and I honestly believe he was probably pretty close - after all, regardless of the subject matter, it is ultimately about whether one takes orders from 'authority figures' or not. Bullies in the schoolyard make others do their bidding and very few will stand up against that - so it must be a hard-wired thing - poured in with the breast-milk. There's even a name for those who are distinctly contrarian from an early age: 'Defiant Opposition Disorder' - which is regarded as pathological. It's a very frustrating phenomenon for those who have the courage of their convictions. Lately I have become somewhat hardened about the deadliness of the jabs because of it - I think that if we are going to defeat the New World Order we really don't need dead-baggage dragging us down - so the obedient ones are maybe meant to get out of the way. It's extremely uncharitable I know, but it is because of the 80% that we are still in the mess we are in so long after the initial clarion-call in 2020. During WW2, it was the heroes of the underground resistance that caused the most undermining of the brutal regime's schemes. And at the end of the day, no matter how the Shamdemic' all pans out, the 'miscreants' who defied the jabbers are still going to judged to be in the wrong because they didn't die or suffer serious adverse effects after 'doing the right thing' 'for the Greater Good'.
And in the history of mankind - masks have had dire usage & significance that is detrimental (outside of the usage in surgery & in natural catastrophes, etc).
Which begs the question, what the next game is.
Another round of assisted self mutilation would be my guess.
I think it's going to be far worse than that. The genie's well out of the bottle now and the ilk behind this isn't of the "we lost, let's face it" type. They're more than 'if I can't be the star on the team and constantly get the ball, I'm taking my ball and no one's going to play' types. Think scorch-n-burn types. Which, without thinking, is EXACTLY what they did on 9-11 and Lahaina.
All of these people are deranged. COVID broke them beyond repair. They all should just buy a hazmat suit and be done with it. Leave the rest of us sane people alone.
I strongly suspect they were already broken. Covid set them free.
I agree. They were always narcissistic hypochondriacs. Covid made their hypochondria and narcissism normal and highly sought after. They were finally the popular kids at the lunch table, they don't want to go back to sitting alone eating tater tots under their dirty masks.
People this upset about people not wearing masks should be encouraged to get the new booster as soon as it becomes available, and to make sure they stay current. It should never be more than 4 months since their last booster.
They should really socially distance for everyone's safety. Ideally in a foreign country just to be sure.
Preferably, a foreign country with no people.
I hear the ocean bottom is lovely this time of year.
John - hopefully, some can be rescued out of their delusion 💔
"COVID broke them beyond repair."
I wish I could present a respectful argument against your conclusion, John, I really do.
But I can't.
The behavioral scientists employed to break the will of masses of people, knew their business, understood what they were doing and the implications for the future of those who their dishonesty and manipulations injured and killed.
You, sir, are correct about permanent injury. I wish you were wrong, and I strongly suspect that you share that wish.
Here's her twitter handle. Y'all know what to do!
@VHackenbroch
What is the German equivalent of Karen? Greta? She would want the non compliant to wear gold stars and get thrown into quarantine camps.
I believe Angela would be the correct answer.
From the Family that moved EAST as the Berlin wall went up?
Angela Merkel's family moved to East Germany in 1954, which was seven years before the Wall was built. Her father was a Lutheran pastor, and was posted East, so the move, in itself, doesn't indicate Communist loyalties.
Merkel has plenty of dirty laundry from her East German days, discussed at length in "Das erste Leben der Angela M." (2013) by Ralf Georg Reuth and Günther Lachmann (there's no English translation). Even if some old debts were still being called in during the 90s, during her rise to the top of the CDU, I can't see how she could still be manipulated by some shadowy communist forces during her time as Chancellor.
The modern state and its bureaucracy defends itself by devious and sometimes brutal means, without any need for closet Communists or N*z*s lurking in the background. Merkel's ideas and policies as Chancellor all matched what was being discussed and proposed by her fellow Western politicians, and in think tanks and NGOs.
Neighbouring countries often use the "Heidi from Germany" trope to mock them. It predates "Karen" but could easily be repurposed.
It's MUTTI
Doesn't that mean "Mommy"? (Not very nice!)
🤣🤣 Who let the dogs 🐕 🐩 out!
I hope she gets a mild case of the 'covid bug'
Armbands would work as well as masks did and do.
Society would have been better off tying a rabbits foot around one's neck, but the armbands are a nice historical parallel.
Neither mask or rabbit's foot are needed if you simply close your eyes and become invisible. That way nobody bothers you.
This is what we should do, just wear the mask on our arms, 😝
Ze german government will give you a free arm tattoo?
Brilliant
This moron can gimp mask herself up to the eyeballs, doesn’t mean a single member of the public needs to conform to her wants just so she feels better.
My own mother said she felt better wearing one even after I told her they were pointless and useless at stopping infection.
She acknowledged the real information but said wearing one made her feel better in busy shops.
They’ve played some real psychological games on the public and are still not done.
More people need to stick two fingers up at them and ignore every word they utter.
My elderly prim-and-proper mother says she’s warming up her middle fingers for anyone who tells her to put on a mask. She was terrified the first year of the scamdemic, wearing a silly sheer cloth mask that hung loosely away from her nose and bobbled up and down when she talked (but always one that matched her outfit!). I’m so glad she finally saw the light. (Literally she could see light through her mask when she held it up, and that was part of what made her realize what a scam it all was.)
Her mask sounds the same as mine - it was chiffon and see-through!
One woman on here had one made of fishnet type material. Technically it conformed to the rules as it was a "face covering." Lol 😜
I saw one of those in 2021. To my eternal shame, I glared disapprovingly at the girl wearing it.
Sometimes I feel like one of those people who have escaped from crazy cults and then go around delivering lectures about their experience.
I think that can often be the most powerful testimony. The previously afflicted have insights others lack.
And it doesn't matter where you start only where you are going.
Lol 🤣
I think most are incapable of acting solo. It is as simple as that.
The rebellion against masks isn’t based of the efficacy or lack of efficacy. They were forced on us despite SCIENCE being clear that they didn’t work( Bangladeshi study was an exception). Masks are not a bad idea- they just don’t work.
I have to disagree. I think masks are a bad idea. They create fear. They make communication difficult and they form a psychological barrier between people. I find that whenever I meet a masked person my eyes move to the masked area and the strange gyrations that the mask makes when they try and talk. I find I never even look at their eyes. It is simply a very bad idea all round.
Fair enough. My concern was their obligatory use when there still is not evidence of their benefit. Remember we were supposed to be following the SCIENCE.
They're good for a big nose
Has anyone done psychological tests related to masks? I suspect this is their underlying science.
Masks are there to share the scare.
this woman face is last thing you see before you are forcefully anesthetized and lobotomized for your own good
nurse ratched physiognomy
https://twitter.com/MarkKaposvari/status/1610943454216855555
Only ugly girls and guys should wear masks. Or is that only ugly girls and guys wear masks?
So sorry. :)
True Nazis are gonna Nazi. She can’t help it. Just following orders.
She is more Keystone Kops than National Socialism, lol 😆
The National Socialist Leadership weren't competent but who the people who followed their orders were.
Is she really saying that she won't protect the community out of fear of looking like an oddball?
Shouldn't she be a mask warrior and sally to the battlefield, courage and mask in hand? I'm starting to think these people are more concerned with themselves than others. She even sounds, gulp, narcissistic! I'm sure this cannot be and I am misunderstanding her word for word.
Masking is important part of the religion of those who want to rule the world. This religion appears to be a mix mash of Satanism, Egyptian, Biblical and Babylonian gods and goddesses along with trans humanism. One of the most important tenants of it is called: "mocking the victim".
Masks mock the victim when people willingly don symbols of subservience and obedience to tyranny, items which serve no purpose other than to make a laughing stock of those who go along with it. One is participating in self abuse required by someone else's sick pleasure.
So Ms. Hackenbroch, if you go along with this. that is your right. What is not your right is to insist that others participate in a religion they do not hold.
Be mocked by tyrants. Just don't ask that from the rest of us. We won't engage in obedience to tyrants.
“Masks are even better than for self-protection when it comes to protecting the community:” But CoVid Hobgoblin Fauci has re-emerged from under his stone to tell us that masks don’t protect the community, but protect the individual. He doesn’t explain, since a community is an aggregate of individuals, how that contradiction is explained. But really, these asylum escapees should get together and get their story straight. I’m getting confused. How many jabs do we need before we can ‘return to normal’?
John. I don't see a contradiction. What Fauci says is a lie, but not contradictory. If masks prevented spreading a disease (they don't), they would help the community, but not necessarily infected individuals wearing them.
I think you have read it the wrong way round. Maybe I can explain it better. He claims that masks don’t work for the public at large, but do on an individual basis. If they work for individuals and those individuals form a community, they must work for the community.
The lottery comes to mind. The benefits to the lottery playing public at large are infinitesimally small. But because an individual might win the lottery, playing the lottery works for that individual.
Playing the lottery only works for that individual if they win.
My inclination is to feel sorry for those wanting to diaper their faces but I'm beginning to think the slimy plastic beaks are attached to people who are just not empathetic or even nice.
Just this weekend, we were doing an outside concert on a lovely, well-groomed large sandy beach with a deck with facilities and restaurant.
EXAMPLE of awful mask wearer: (mid 60s) woman wearing double mask with her bathing suit (!) into ladies room. When she came out with lots of napkins on her hands she took off her mask and littered the napkins all over the place by shaking her hands so she didn't touch them wrong.
Littering, scowling, probably angry at those that invited her to a gorgeous (80 degree) day at the beach, this woman is a Debbie Downer litterer with no consideration of the people who will have to touch her napkins or the wildlife who encounter it.
I feel the masks tell us who to avoid.
I have other examples of masked meanies if anyone is interested.
Eugyppius, if available in German maybe you should send her the following from George Carlin about germs. It probably won’t heal her brain damage but it’ll show her that even an old comedian is smarter than she!
https://youtube.com/watch?v=X29lF43mUlo&si=T_EfDDhs6pM_i5ad
I love that George Carlin bit.
Me too, he does one on saving the planet that’s awesome too! The best humor always has truth in it and Carlin knew it
Fools
Eugyppius, I am old enough to remember when you wrote about not writing about masking anymore.
to be honest, i thought the cochrane dust-up would be more or less the end of it, and i’ve been a little unsettled by the recent push to make the virus a thing again, even though i can accept intellectually that’s it’s probably mostly vaccine marketing.
Plus the remnant of those who profited in other ways from the pandemic response itself. Everything from promotions, increased visibility and even just excitement and a sense of importance.
Covid-19 live action roleplaying, as it were, until a new public health crisis reaches escape velocity.
'a new public health crisis reaches escape velocity'
+10 for that phraseology.
Indeed
Makes my hair stand on end
He has a mixed audience. Now he is a full-time writer he has to consider this. There appear to be three types of commentator on here:
1) WEF AND KLAUS SCHWAB PLANNED IT ALL WITH THE US MILITARY LOOK AT THE PRACTICE DRILLS THEY HAD. Their posts are very, very long and thickly larded with links to long, turgid articles. They are deeply upset about lockdowns and corona but they are in many ways as damaged as those who still wear masks. They throw the baby out with the bathwater and reject all vaccines, any medical authority etc. I have occasionally had to catch myself before going down this route.
2) Those who are still angry and upset about corona. They are right to be so: I sympathise and until recently I was one of them. I cannot remain angry forever as it is terrible for the soul. I won't forget, never, but I have understood that those in charge will never face justice as it would be expecting those guilty to volunteer for a circular firing squad.
3) Those who are more interested in corona as a symptom of societal collapse and insanity. This is ongoing and is fertile ground for more articles about 'Green' weirdness, trans barbarism etc etc. I am in this group which is why I continue to subscribe.
I too am in Group 3. I have sympathy for those who fell for the propaganda since it includes most people I know. But the bigger issue is societal collapse, as you say. The decline in quality we see across the board, including the pandemic response itself.
I have to say I fall into group 3 for the most part. Thank you for the perceptive taxonomization of our community.
Looks like I just made up a word. Sorry about that.
I like it. And I think I fall into all three. :)
I sympathize with him. It is so difficult to not write about masks ... I have promised myself many times to forget about them, but I just can't.
Let them wear masks as it helps us identify who the marxist totalitarians are.
That will come in handy down the road.
Head girl should be sent to the headmaster for a spanking, and to write out 100000 times "I am a human rights violator". She may wear a mask over the relevant anatomical location if desired.
Except the headmaster thinks the head girl is fundamentally right but just a little over-enthusiastic.
I know a man who, during the height of mask nuttiness, kept a “Lone Ranger” eye mask in his pocket, and if the Karen guarding the door at a store demanded that he put on a mask, he readily complied - with his eye mask! I should get one of those, just in case. I hope my little corner of Texas won’t go that route again, but I want to be prepared!
My 85 year old dad was handed a mask at his cardiologist’s office, long after mask mandates were dropped. They said he had to wear it, so he hung it from one ear. He looked across the waiting room where a sad-looking woman had her mask on. She saw him with his mask dangling from one ear, her eyes lit up, and she took the mask off her face and hung it from one ear too with a big smile. Many people are just waiting for someone to lead the way!
Let’s make the mask nuts feel like the oddballs they are!!